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A request from all Modders
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Description

This is not a bug report but I thought this might be best place to make such request.

I think all modders will agree with this request.

Please give us the vanilla DayZ models unbinarized when we unpack the pbos with the DayZ tools and allow us to reuse them in our mods fully or partially.

Why would this be a good thing for modders of DayZ?

  1. Modders can do comparisons for importing new items. E.g. I want to see the size of the vanilla Carp to adjust the size of a custom imported fish.
  2. Modders can see where they place the proxies instead of having to meddle with those triangles.
  3. Modders can learn from vanilla models about good practices and what we should be using when making models.
  4. Modders can upscale some models for their projects.
  5. Modders can use parts of the models to create new ones. E.g. Make new variants of the base building like smaller doors.
  6. Modders can use them in other programs like substance painter to make accurate retextures.

Why would this be bad for DayZ?
I believe some people think that having access to unbinarized vanilla models will cause DayZ models to leak into other games mods, 3D models websites etc. While this could be true, there's nothing stopping them from doing that now as well if they really wanted to. Someone that has that kind of intention won't be stopped by some binarization. I'm pretty sure you as the devs know about these tools.
So while the binarization may be an extra protection measure, at the moment it's not helping anyone. It is actually just hurting modders that want to create authentic looking models for DayZ.

How will this affect the models imported by modders and the models using vanilla parts?
This is a complex topic indeed. Some might say: If we get rights to use the vanilla models, why shouldn't we use same licensing? e.g. If I make a model, someone else can use it for their mod in a derivative way.

I wouldn't be happy to pay even £10 for a model and someone else to just take it of course. So we can open a discussion on this to find the best solution.

I would personally prefer if all models by modders are still protected from reupload or derivatives. This would be safest and easiest solution.

A middle ground it would be so models containing vanilla parts, would be considered derivatives and should be allowed to be used by other modders as derivatives. But no one can take a model that was rightfully purchased under no redistribution licensing. This would be more "fair" solution but will be extremely hard to police, in my opinion.

I've been modding this game for so many years now. We have tried many times to find workarounds to make similar looking models like commissioning someone to make it match the texture but this is extremely costly and time consuming. This also only works for point 5 from above. All the other points still don't have great solutions.

I do beg the DayZ dev team to listen to our request. This will enrich the DayZ mods in many many ways.

Details

Severity
Feature
Resolution
Open
Reproducibility
N/A
Operating System
Windows 10 x64
Category
General

Event Timeline

There are a very large number of changes, so older changes are hidden. Show Older Changes

+1 allow us to make DayZ better.

did someone say there was a revolution

10 years of Arma 2 buildings, let modders add more rooms, improve Winter Chernarus (TREE LODS), and who knows what else. At the very least give us a reason as to why this isn't possible.

This comment was removed by dedmen.
dedmen added a subscriber: dedmen.Dec 12 2023, 1:15 PM
ntepup added a subscriber: ntepup.Dec 12 2023, 2:56 PM

Community servers and modders have brought this game to where it is today. Not to say that you haven't put in a ton of work. You have. However...if it wasn't for these brilliant minded people, who have these great ideas and skills to put forth all of these great things for communities, I don't think DayZ would be where it is today. They have put in so much time and effort to support this great game. Their projects keep this game fresh and push it forward to new heights and work around it quirks and limitations, let you know when things aren't right so it can be improved. Heck most times they even give you the exact issue AND the solution to the issue when they post here to save you the time and trouble yourselves to speed up the troubleshooting. Everything that Helkhiana has stated here is well thought out and true. For this community and all that it has given you perhaps you would greatly consider giving this to them. This is just a great gesture to the community that has been here and will be here for you.

1 thing I would really love to see from this is modders having the ability to change vanilla buildings. I think there is a lot of potential in DayZ to change building interiors and create a bunch of new verities from that. I understand that it's a lot of work from the devs but giving that opportunity to the players would be really sick

1 thing I would really love to see from this is modders having the ability to change vanilla buildings. I think there is a lot of potential in DayZ to change building interiors and create a bunch of new verities from that. I understand that it's a lot of work from the devs but giving that opportunity to the players would be really sick

there's so many things I have in plan if they could give us these rights. We could add rooms to buildings, remove certain furniture or even make furniture removable?? I love taking over houses for base building but all the furniture gets in the way.
So much potential to expand the game!

💥 Join the revolution! Time to change and make DayZ even better! 💥

I second this.
It would be great to have a standard and style to follow, which can only happen from the original source.

Bring the guillotine ! Oh wait, not that kind of revolution...

RedFalcon added a comment.EditedDec 13 2023, 8:34 PM

My thought would be to leave the entire thing as it is now with the general public (vanilla models are binned, you can't republish vanilla models to the Steam Workshop). Then have a path for modders to be 'registered' and have a Modder Portal where they could get access to the unbinned vanilla models and the authority to modify/republish them on the Steam Workshop. This allows modders to continue to use purchased mods (from CGTrader and such) and still abide by the licensing agreement to protect the purchased model assets, yet expand on the models contained with vanilla DayZ.

Alt added a subscriber: Alt.Dec 14 2023, 2:22 AM

Please support your community. We wish to help you make money.

I think that is not possible due intelectual property and licenses. Lot of modders already debinarize models for learning purposes. In my opinion its not needed take care about this ticket. There are already lot of assets from arma2 which can be modified and imported into dayz. More important in my opinion is documentation of engine, exposing more useful methods in API and fixing bugs not only game but workbech (crashbench) as well.

they could license it differently, like if you repack and change models, mod should be open source, and dayz only, idk. roughly something like ADPL-SA.
there's just a bunch of things you can't do without repacking, that's why sumrak did it on namalsk. and it's no small part, of it's greatness.
and since BI not only leaves some objects this way, they even add new items without normal hiddenselections reskins,
anyway we could definitely benefit from it, just need to thinks of something smart about license

I think that is not possible due intelectual property and licenses. Lot of modders already debinarize models for learning purposes. In my opinion its not needed take care about this ticket. There are already lot of assets from arma2 which can be modified and imported into dayz. More important in my opinion is documentation of engine, exposing more useful methods in API and fixing bugs not only game but workbech (crashbench) as well.

Things don't have to be mutually exclusive. They can do this and do the rest of the stuff you said too. I don't believe it would set them back that much by doing this request.

As to: Lot of modders already debinarize models for learning purposes This is somewhat true. But the modders without connections in the modding community, will not have access to this illegal tool. And sharing it on discords is illegal too. I want it to be accessible to all modders.
I am open to discuss with DayZ devs to what extent this request gets done to maximize the benefit of both parties.

Using DPL-SA licensing on any models from DayZ is a good middle-ground.

There are already lot of assets from arma2 which can be modified and imported into dayz There are. But they are not DayZ assets. There's plenty of things people would like to do with the DayZ assets. Is the vanilla basebuilding assets in Arma2? No. Are all of the guns that could be modified into a different modularity system? No. Are there all the houses from Chernarus? No. I can keep going.
A lot of things people would like to improve on are not in Arma 2 asset pack.

My thought would be to leave the entire thing as it is now with the general public (vanilla models are binned, you can't republish vanilla models to the Steam Workshop). Then have a path for modders to be 'registered' and have a Modder Portal where they could get access to the unbinned vanilla models and the authority to modify/republish them on the Steam Workshop. This allows modders to continue to use purchased mods (from CGTrader and such) and still abide by the licensing agreement to protect the purchased model assets, yet expand on the models contained with vanilla DayZ.

I don't agree with this entirely. In a perfect world maybe it could work. This type of thing takes WAY TOO MUCH TIME from devs, like full time, to maintain. What are the criterias to be "registered"? This could work more if we move away from Steam Workshop. I'm not totally against it but it is not such an easy thing to implement while being fair to all modders.

This is also elitism to be honest as any starting modder should have access to learn from the vanilla models. I learned to script for DayZ by reading their scripts and other modder's scripts. Obviously just looking at the model in Object Builder won't explain much what each LOD does, what each property does etc. But it is a good starting point for experimenting and learning.
You could say that the devs should give us documentation but that also takes way more time from them to be honest when modders could be doing all this groundwork if we had access to it all (legally).

I can imagine shitstorm to BI when someone modified some building, player will be glitched in new badly maked room and make report to this bugtracker and waste time of QA people here. For me will be sufficient when all models will have at least hidden selections to allow at least retexture.

Tyson added a subscriber: Tyson.Dec 15 2023, 9:16 AM
mdc added a comment.Dec 15 2023, 9:35 AM

Imagine any modder not wanting this, and instead actively making excuses for Bohemia's unwillingness to provide it.

Arguments have been made privately that "this would create more work for BI's legal team", but that doesn't track. APL / ADPL / DPL already exists. The models are already easily obtainable for nefarious purposes. Debinarized vanilla models are included in a handful of high profile mods. Enforcement is selectively performed, not due to lack of resources, but due to lack of will in common sense situations.

The actual reason for not doing this is simple.

The DayZ project, as a whole, looks down on modding. Anything which encourages, promotes or makes the creation of higher-quality content than first party possible is intentionally snubbed. Long-requested features are typically added only when required by first party content. New systems are introduced which mimic or interfere with 3rd party content, without consideration of the impact.

To take an obvious example, vanilla basebuilding. A long time ago, some modder created a "Vanilla Building+" mod, or something of the sort, which added new vanilla-esque basebuilding pieces, heavily expanding the options for players to create settlements. Said mod was pulled off the workshop shortly afterwards due to "re-using vanilla assets". The mod harmed no-one, it enhanced the experience for players, wasn't a private mod, or paid mod, or anything of the sort. It didn't contain malicious code, or assets, or adversely affect performance or stability. The one "negative" thing that it did do, however, was negatively reflect on Bohemia's reluctance / failure to provide the playerbase with additional basebuilding options.

Any mod that is a threat to the perceived good reputation and competence of Bohemia Interactive will have things like this enforced in order to restore the "reputation" of BI and the "superiority" of first party content.

Until this attitude goes away, your well-meaning request, @Helkhiana, will most likely go unanswered and definitely unfulfilled.

AndreZ added a subscriber: AndreZ.Dec 15 2023, 5:52 PM

All for this. When it comes to providing a learning opportunity, wouldn't it suffice to release the p3ds with the higher resolution LODs removed? Basically the low quality asset route that the Arma 2 DLCs used to follow

A pack of samples for every item in each category would come handy or as @BadLuckBurt said low quality lods. I myself would rather prefer work on the Workbench and AIs, so we can add more diverse and special AI with different/special behaviours

btw dont call this a request from all modders when its just a group of people(dont want to start a drama or something just saying)

A pack of samples for every item in each category would come handy or as @BadLuckBurt said low quality lods. I myself would rather prefer work on the Workbench and AIs, so we can add more diverse and special AI with different/special behaviours

btw dont call this a request from all modders when its just a group of people(dont want to start a drama or something just saying)

Things don't have to be mutually exclusive. We can have this and them working on the Workbench as well. If you raised a ticket about the issues with Workbench, share it more around, push for it. I am all for it, I know how bad Workbench can be and I do want it to improve. But this is not about workbench or taking away from that work.

I am opening a forum to discuss the needs of the things described in the ticket, try to talk with the devs about it and try to find a middle ground to improve this part of the modding scene in DayZ. I am not demanding this to be immediate or most priority for the devs. I want to talk with them and the people commenting show other examples of how this could be useful for them.

I can imagine shitstorm to BI when someone modified some building, player will be glitched in new badly maked room and make report to this bugtracker and waste time of QA people here. For me will be sufficient when all models will have at least hidden selections to allow at least retexture.

This comes with the modding territory anyway. If someone plays on a modded server there will be changes to vanilla behaviour. They will make tickets for any issues when they are not knowledgeable of what's modded, if they really do bother making tickets.

Currently, learning the proper way of doing things very difficult without having access to these, so so much can be learned by this being allowed. In general, this would be highly beneficial for the entire modding community, as well as future modders to come into the community. Currently learning all of these already complex things to make mods is already a chore that is further compounded by the fact that it takes a very long time figuring out stuff on your own with the limited information that eliteness gives you. That this would be a very amazing thing to allow and very much appreciated by the community in whole. So hook us up 😊❤️

sileed added a subscriber: sileed.Dec 21 2023, 11:07 PM
Geez changed the task status from New to Reviewed.Jan 2 2024, 1:01 PM

Hello @Geez

The ticket has been in "Reviewed" for 2 weeks now but there hasn't been any updates in a text format as to what this status means. Just a friendly boop reminder. I'd be grateful for some info.

Geez added a comment.Jan 16 2024, 3:48 PM

Unfortunately right now I cannot provide any information on this topic. It is noted by us however and the discussion is ongoing.

Thank you for the reply. Even knowing it's an ongoing discussion is good info. Appreciate it.

Looking forward to a positive resolution 😀

I think one of the biggest elephants in the room for Bohemia is "why aren't more modders making mods for the new Enfusion engine on reforger?" Reforger has COPIOUS amounts of modding samples for it's branch of the Enfusion engine.

DayZ's branch of Enfusion, with RV elements, should be the bridge between both worlds for would-be A4 modders coming from A3/A2 or DayZSA, however the DayZ public samples on github are the opposite of copious lol. For starters, a swift and MASSIVE expansion of modding samples (similar to reforger's samples) would reduce the massive learning curve for newcomers, and help more people become familiar with modding key elements of Enfusion (cough cough like animations).

Right now there's too much behind pointless red tape. DayZ was created by modders for modders. The more power we have as modders, the more players the game will see and that means more copies sold. Bohemia wins, the modders win, and the players win.

Akol added a subscriber: Akol.Feb 10 2024, 11:16 PM
inkihh added a subscriber: inkihh.Feb 11 2024, 4:21 PM
This comment was removed by Geez.
This comment was removed by Geez.
Riddick_2K added a subscriber: Riddick_2K.EditedFeb 17 2024, 5:42 AM

I'm not a first-time player, I started in 2020 but, also due to the pandemic, I already have a few thousand hours of play. Of these, many manage and modify a private Vanilla server. Then, after a few years, I decided to get myself on a modded server. It was also public for a while with Nitrado (terrible service that I let lapse). As far as I'm concerned, the worst aspect of mods is the obligation to manage them through the "jail" of the "Workshop". They pass it off as "a convenience for users", in reality it is a small dictator who imposes his will on everyone. Once upon a time, video game mods were distributed directly by modders as standalone "files". When you had it, you used it. You were under no obligation to change or update it. You couldn't wake up in the morning and find your server messed up because the mod is no longer there, or it was updated (and you had NO problem with that mod). And in DayZ they also use a lot of mods... it's a fixed and constant "pain in the ass"... and without any real use for players and server managers. And don't tell me that "updates are always necessary for the stability of the game", or it means that you only understand computer science "in words". In reality, in IT more than in many other aspects of life, the rule is that: "You don't change the team that wins". The Workshop is the exact opposite. This, for me, as a modded player and server manager, is the "main devil to defeat"... without taking anything away from the main point which, in essence, I agree with... but it is a question of "priority" in focusing on the "negative aspects" (or which could be greatly improved) of the DayZ modding environment.
These are my 5 cents.
P.S.
Sorry for my bad English but I must use Google.

Probably wouldn't matter to BI, but I'd ask the original artists who created these models if they're alright with it. As an artist myself I would find it extremely painful to see my model used in some cheat assetflip to make a quick buck. Sure, the people who want unbinarized models will find a way, but openly releasing them just makes that way more accessible. Not a fan personally, unless the artists agree to it.

As an artist myself I would find it extremely painful to see my model used in some cheat assetflip to make a quick buck.

Which is where the proper licensing comes in play: 1. Attribution 2. Noncommercial 3. Dayz Only
This thread is all about community samples, so that new people can have proper direction on what to do with a model, and for more skilled ones to have a base to work on models that actually fit the game.
By having a look around the workshop, plenty of assets look "new", too high polys, textures that seem taken out from GTA.
This happens cos people have to base themselves off online resources that more often than not are far from being DayZ related.
If community samples would be there, that should be the standard.

But to your point, yes artists have to be respected for their work.
And people inspired by it will develop that respect themselves just by knowing what got them started.

Hello @Geez Sorry for chasing this. It would be nice to get an update on where we are with this request.

Geez added a comment.Apr 30 2024, 10:07 AM

Hello Helkhiana.
Unfortunately no new information I can share.

I am very pesimistic with this ticket. It will open pandora's box if will be not refused. And honestly making pressure for answer is not good way in my opinion.

It has been almost 5 months since the ticket has been made. Asking for an update close to half of year is not unreasonable.
I am trying to open a discussion between DayZ devs and modders.

We have 10 years of DayZ. Some big new update is coming.
Enabling us to further enhance modding and modding learning, is the right step forward.

Thanks for the reply Geez. I hope we can at least have an honest discussion about this with the devs in the near future. What are their concerns? Can we find a middle ground? How can we move forward? Communication is key for modding community.

Geez changed the task status from Reviewed to Feedback.Apr 30 2024, 11:44 AM

Hello everyone.
Currently we do not plan to provide the unbinarized models. This might possibly change in the future.

"3.Modders can learn from vanilla models about good practices..." you think of them way too high dude ;) Believe me, not everything is so shiny in that town )

There are all kinds of things we can learn from unbinarized models. One example is memory points positions.
A lot can be learned at beginning by just mimicking vanilla even if it might not all be best practices. Those get improved in time as you learn and discover things. That's how i started with modding. Mimicked vanilla and other mods and improved over time after understanding what I'm doing.

Every point i made is small on it's own. But when you add them all together, you must see the benefit of it.

I'm disappointed that we will not get them at this point.
I won't stop fighting for it though.
To be honest I think moving away from steam workshop would probably make this request more viable. I understand there are a lot of intricacies and legal issues of this request. But i hope i stirred something to maybe make this a thing in the future.

There is ways to see binarized P3ds, as a text form from Mikeros Eliteness or as complete debin tool, i dont see a reason why not to use them for learning purpose. The tools arent hard to find (simple google search found it) if you want to invest a time in modding.

Yes such things are possible and Eliteness does get you part of the way, but the point is that debin tools are not actually allowed (despite their availability). The main thrust here is to make such things legit and sanctioned rather than a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

There is ways to see binarized P3ds, as a text form from Mikeros Eliteness or as complete debin tool, i dont see a reason why not to use them for learning purpose. The tools arent hard to find (simple google search found it) if you want to invest a time in modding.

Right, but part of the rationale for the request is helping new people get into modding. As RedFalcon said, debin tools are not allowed to be used, so they can't be suggested/offered as an option on legitimate DayZ modding discords, etc. Plus, content theft is already an enormous problem within DayZ, so nobody wants to encourage the spread even more of tools that people will use to steal models.

778 added a subscriber: 778.May 25 2024, 1:27 PM