@siegeh25 you do know what polemic is, dont you?
@UltraJake your right, last post here by me :>
your vidoes are nothing special, i started to watch the first few minutes and stoped because this guy tells just what he believes without any substantil background check. This already starts with quoting that in WW2 no woman where active in combat. This is just wrong... and it goes on and on and even with a short hollywood sequenz at the end. Honestly you could not have found something less polemic.
if this would be such a big problem there is likely to be a mod for that maby swaps female with male models, so that you can enjoy your game, and everyone else in their own way.
Me beeing a hypocritical thunder cunt, let me check..., thats not possible. Am i to hard on you :>
Anyway if what you want to say has nothing to do with the suggestion directly, here is the place to post your thinking about that topic..
@Corona2172 "I am not for females being placed into forward operating infantry units in the campaign game"
do yo mean the single player campaign? Sorry im not native, I dont quite understand what you mean by that. This topic is about playing female char in the multiplayer game, what has that to do with the campaign?
The most multiplayer games i have seen so far cant been seen as serious and realistic simulation of war. Most of them are gametyps with realism only in the sens of mechanics. So i dont see where the frontline and that "it would break realism" argument (what was often troped here) applys generally.
In the singleplayer campaign, or some scenarios i might understand it. But in singleplayer its your own choice what you play, if its not hard coded in some way.
Anyway this toppic became sensless as it seems because not very few people like @ebrain seems believe this is about a war of gender that has to be fought because the side your on...
@Unzipped this has nothing to do with the topic, has it?
no you got that wrong this hole debate was about the wish that female characters are integrated as playable usercharacter in multiplayer of ARMA3. Done by selectiong you profile under options.
And one of the reasoning is just that woman do server in quite a view western armies and not only the US in position where they have an active combat role. That doesnt only mean the infantery groups as arma is more than just about infantery and more than just about beeing about frontlines. Arma is about War in general.
@dunadan it only means that the ratio of men to women is not 1. Someone doing the job he is qualified for is pragmatism in purest form. There is nothing wrong with that. Only time will tell where this is going. But i dont see it going back to what it was. Yes woman in the US militay do serve in combat roles already. The main differenc with the opening is that they can now apply for post and on the ground they can be now offically part of a unit and not just by beeing attached to it. Basically it is just a leagel adjustment to what is already happening.
@dunadan there are such and such roles in military. Not every role expect a soldier in combat to be carrying 45 kg. Some roles like fighter pilot needs more brain than muscels. And a good team platoon leader needs brain too even if their are stronger men a woman might do a better job,the mens strength doesnt make them nessesary more qualified. Its the overall qualification in different areas that counts. If someone doesnt reach the expectations then their not fit for the job, thats all their is, independently of gender.
read this for change
and stop mocking other people, have some respect
@aLmAnZo im not qualified to estimate to guess what it cost or what time has to be spend. Just some points.
@@@ This will be my last post for a week.@@@
I havent seen any other posts of sugesstions in this tracker been so overthrown for reasons that didnt have to do anything with the suggestion itself! Rather with some personal believes about the female gender. Think about it.
Thanks for all UP Voters that back up this sugesstion independently of what their reasons are. And thanks to every futur upvoter.
@CaptainChip diversity is something that can come in may ways. Having different kind of weapons for example. Many of the wepaons are redundant in the aspect of what can you do with them. Still people like having many different looking guns, or clothing, or different type of male faces african, white, asian.. so i would like to see fully integrated woman, no harm with that.
an honestly no one is asking for being woman implemented ASP as fully aware that this will take some time, but the whish is it should be at some point, if BI is up to it, either in the finished game or as part of a dlc later on.
with 40% i have spoken about generally woman playing pc games (http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_Essential_Facts_2010.PDF) from which some do play fps games in, and as i have said i dont know what the statistic tells about woman actually playing FPS tells.
This is just one point im not going to argue with you further AussieStig as you clearly dont even try to read carefully, and in my opinion are more pushing your personal believes here. As it is it is indeed wasted time on you, sadly.
So who did tell you there wont be any mods for arma requiering a good female model to begin with?
@dunadan .. we can go on all day about if or if not woman are capable about this or that. But at least dont fall for the gender trap. No one in their right mind would say woman are in a general view in average stronger as men. But combat roles thera are many (we see in Arma series as well). And combat needs different skill not just strength depending what you aim for.
Read it, i would say this guy knows more about war than me and probably you
and as pointed out that is just one of other reasonings why arma should have female models.
first of all i notice you are not against a female character in game.
"Sure you could add women into the game"
Secondly as you lead you argument here with a response question I presume you dont know yourselfe why there shouldnt be female chars in game.
Third, you do have an opinion at the point that their are more pressuring things to be addressed.
That is something we all agree on, but that doesnt render the wish invalid!
Fourth, what is a good point
"..why that dev time should be spent on making female models, instead of something useful in the game.."
-> thats still something unique in FPS Games, also over 40% of pc gamers in general are woman and are as such possible/potential FPS players http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_Essential_Facts_2010.PDF [^] (im not saying they all do play FPS but some of them do and more could)
-> it gives woman the possibility to reflect their gender
-> fully integrated it is easier to use for scenarios, storydriven singleplayer missions
-> it gives diversity in visuals, and audio, and diversity makes things most of the time more interesting (for the very same reason we do have many different weapon models also they dont change the gamplay as such)
-> many times stated woman are participating in combate roles, air,ground,water
-> to that topic read http://khanrahan.com/2012/04/20/more-reasons-why-women-shouldnt-be-in-combat/
-> in a sandboxgame many scenarios are possible, it can be a realistic one as well as an unrealistic one (males females chars in zombi mods, or in scenarios presenting woman in todays warzones)
-> given woman the possibility to choose also beeing a female char in a game is something many serious FPS have faild so far. This is one of the reasons to my believe that still not so many woman are playing FPS, also i dont know the real numbers it could be verywell more than we believe as many woman dont just come forward. I just can tell from my clan that 13% of us are woman. And i know all of them would be very happy about a change how woman are represented by games.
-> publicity, in general people play what is advertised for them. Im not saying it will change much yet, but if all FPS would integrate the female community better this might change on the long run because integration ingame means also a broader accaptence by the male community , especially with a full fletched milsim as Arma!(added later on)
this is a quick resumee
In the end it does entirely depend on BIs decission, and i will accept it whatever it is.
And one last word AussieStig, respect! is something you earn. It isnt done by putting down anyting as "ridiculous response", just to mark you words. So i hope i made your day.
@MaJoR Mole pls just let him be, nothing good will come frome it! Secondly as happy as i am that the up votes are in favour 60% is the way to go but it should be at least 70% to 90% and thats a long way to go.
@AussieStig&Major Mole we do reach almost 300 post now, i think there are enough answers already, you just have to read them. You dont have to read so howle thing so they are some just a few post up. It doesnt makes much sense to repeat them again and again. So if you disagree with an agrument state why you do, its simple as that. Until than please try to relax, start from scratch, both of you ;)
Your comment is pointless and assulting as such and tells us more about you than you intended.
@Reiber it might come as mod, but on how many server will that run, as many of the admins are males and might not know about this mod, will they put it in depending on how good its made, or how it works alongside with the other mods? Aside from that its a simple wish to integrate that into the game from the beinning (and not as reskin with male body), just let BI decide if its worth the efford. I think it is.
PS: and if it realy is a problem for some of the community make it server toggable if or if not genders are displayed.
i might no have served as you but maby you should read
as this guy served and was a company leader in iraq, and is someone who devenetly has some knowlage about this.
it is true as i know to my extend that israel had women in their "frontline" roles but than were pulled of the very hot zones as the guys could not handel it by beeing sensless protective, that woman can also die! So to put it in other words it was not actually the womens fault that they are not allowed to the imediate zones anymore, but the guys.... And it doesnt mean women dont fight, anymore. Something some might think about.
you might read the link too as he talks about that topic as well.
the problem is that what is said against is often very polarrising, as what some might think to be true and comes from the fact that women in combat roles are not so often seen. Man polarise by wheigting the things woman do than more because of their gender, because they are "rare". Thats not somthing i made up thats somthing a research of the german Bundeswehr did (since 2001 woman are allowed!!!). So lets take as example the story of the female medic not working accordingly in a crucial moment, what is probably true. There is one example of a women not doing her job, and what is happening is that this held for all woman, but what isnt done is that their very well could be tens maby hundred more stories about man doing the same thing as the combatwoman did, as the statistical accourance of men is indeed higher on the battelfield.
(@Turtle and everyone)
Here is on example of someone who served 20 years in the military and was company commander in iraq talking about woman in combat units
its worth a read and shows in the RL military there are positive views on the toppic.
its not just about woman in game (im not quite sure what you mean so i rephrase it). There will be woman models thats for sure but this suggestion is about the possibility choosing a female char in your profile, represented in the multiplayer as such. What wasnt possible in the vanilla game Arma2 and might not be again for Arma3. Therefore the wish was stated.
@nes4day i perfectly understand you, but others might not and actually vote it down for the same reason also they wouldnt mind. (Like Saronsen maby did?)
@nes4day i think we all agree that there are more pressing matters and no one here asked that to be put in during alpha! but rather in the final game but as you said its BIs decission to say no or yes to this. So we just do the suggestions here. And the Alpha/Beta is the best place to put wishes because done any later it will most likly come again as mod if ever. But some poeple maby dont want this suggestion to turn out only as mod again, because it cant be used on many server, or is broken cause the people supporting it have to do other stuff... Please consider that.
There was a todays forum topic under General in Arma3 about exactly this topic. It was closed after a few posts by a moderator for no good reason -in my opinion- look here http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=1658#c4095
That whats "equality discussions" do look like,.. in this comunity there doesnt seem to be any room for it neither in the forum nor in the feedback tracker, as can be seen @sephith.
@SonixApache this is not about females as civilians, this topic is about the simple whish that woman can play a female character in Arma3 integrated so that they are represented as woman in multyplayer.
@tui004 you should be aware that woman do take part in wars, maby they dont do it as much as men do maby they do have other work areas as men do but many western armies have not many restriction of what they at least could do. They could be pilots, they could be tankdrives, medics... something what is part of Arma after all (..and hell yeha they could even by special operators even if its unlikely in RL but it doesnt has to be in ARMA in a fictional war of the future). So tell me why isnt there a slightest reason why there couldnt be even one functional multiplayer female character?
..Maby because woman dont play FPS? Yes they do. There arent many but this might be very well caused by the way they are treated by many males in the community, and reflection in the gameworld is one part of it. Maby im thinking to much into maby not.
@MaJoR Mole it is hard to predict the future but a 1/5 ratio in 10 years is very optimistic, depending what specialisation you are loking at.
But it doesnt matter this just about one whish. Putting in female chars in arma and not only dudes for one main reason.
..so that woman who play this game can reflect it ingame as fully integrated feature for multiplayer and singleplayer
next to it I think this comes with some good sideefacts, being good for the game itself and the genere and therfore beeing additional arguments. But some people obviusly dont like the idea of infantery woman for various reasons. Most reasons are just shallow, the one by SGTIce as pointed out by you is for me reasonable.
As that i suggested, if BS would be willing to put in female characters, make the final decission server sided. Because the decission is than made by the ones that should be doing it,.. the players.
@Antihelios therefore it should be implemented! But as pointed out some dont think there should be female operators in a simulator game such as Arma3 this is understandable as indeed female operators in some areas are rare or non existing. However as pointed out by me 4 posts before yours. There might be a way to make averyone happy.
it is hard to do the explaining again and again...
@MaJoR Mole true
still for me ARMA is a sandboxgame usable to simulate certain aspects. It realy is a personal thing if or if not a woman char generlly destroys the "reality" feeling. Many game modes are not simulating or not very good reality to begin with. Also i do understand what you mean.
If it realy is a problem that there could be female char players on a server than just lets say there is an server option to display every char as standart/male/female/slotwise and autoswap char on join if nessacary. Than its the admins decission what kind of "reality" the server reflects.It wouldnt be BIs decission what gender are displayed instead the players would decide what to do with it. And this was always something what made arma big. I think everyone could live with that. And overall I could think of some good press by it, or not?, its puplicity anyway.
Use your imagination.. one example for a scenario
you play a resistance of woman of a village defenending against some bad conquerors...would be hard doing it with some dud looking chars, its sandboxgame!
And if something is already implemented ...it does make many things much easier.
@MaJoR Mole im afraid it should be the other way around let the devs know and then let them decide as im am not seeing them reading this whole flamewar
@Itsarclight i dont think so.
@p00d73 true it is.
Maby one other reason is of a more vague nature. Showing woman in an FPS and even in an Simulator about War does show that female players are becoming acknowlaged by society. It is indeed far fetched to believe that instantly more girls start playing FPS for that, what i personally would like to see. However on a long run without any changes, stating FPS are mostly for boys, and no real accaptance espacially by the (male) community one thing is for sure. Nothing might change.
[..and change is somethinge that often doesnt comes wanted]
@Nexerius "Also, a females voice will be HORRIBLE to listen to in the COMMS "
..this does entirely depend on how its done you are preasuming something here. The question is why is that? And that should be your argument.
@Corona2172 ^^ sad i am, from now on believe what you want...
pls get back to topic ...
It is quite frustrating to see how this in my opinion legitim topic is handeld. It is obviously not possible to do it here, because it is either supposingly for bug tracking or got unfortunately the priority or severity config wrong ( see the parrallel topic http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=904.)
So if it put to the forum http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?148337-Female-Soldiers&highlight=female, what happens is that the topic becomes very quickly closed. And this is the moderators reasoning ...
Im not conform with that! Because
To be honest in a community where even forum moderators cant keep their calm, and closing topics because they are controversial, this is a community that has a long long ... way to go before we might be seeing female player reflected ingame just as what they are,...woman.
Even as man, i find that just sad.
"... female character models implemented they are abused, society/gaming these days just can't handle said factor at times"
so male characters are not abusable?? I rather think so. If it would be abused by the community (i still dont know what you mean by that) i dont think it will have a big impact on many people because abusing things are mostly are marked as bad by the mass.
"I am willing to wager $100 you will see more males running around as females"
I would bet that too but i think that counts of having fun with a game, doesnt it? But it doesnt mean that everyone does it on every server because the hole world goes crazy when a man plays a girl what girls live with for years but in the opposite way arround..
"If you're in 3rd person you can see your character, but when you need to use your gun, you'll be using first where it doesn't make a difference"
Yes, but if a woman wants to play a woman and can and is happy with it, this counts as good reason for me. And if other players see a woman in their rows of arma play that can make a difference maby they even like the "diversity" maby they start to take more care of their female comerades for a better gameplay .. for everyone else these woman do just look like the other guys because of their clothes ;)
"Most people I meet & talk about games with are more concerned about the core gameplay/mechanics, whether the game is fun, replayable, have longevity."
SGTIce you are basically saying it might not change much. I think having the ability to chose your avatar for you personal freedome and out of identification out of a reasonable diversity, or just because of liking the face it is maby only a tiny part of arma but reflection and roleplaying is what games are about! If we had only one standart male or female model as soldier we could very well discuss the same way .... I bet it would not concern you because your reflection in arma world is not you concern, as it seems. But many other might be not so happy about it because this is an actual part of gameplay! that indeed has no influence on the mechanics.
So why cant there be at least on female character as well?
Especially as Arma is not only about realism but also about possibilities, and women can be soldiers and yes some women do play arma so yes its a not far fetched to say there should be female chars.
"Emu, i've played with women in games that don't have female characters for years. It's not going to do much. They'll play the game if it's appealing & fun, it'll attract more perverts & morons to do stupid things for sure."
"Halo dosen't have females, Call of Duty, Battlefield, no females. Girls still play em, so I must be confused as to why we need female characters"
you are right to some degree. But what im more confused about is why doesnt they have it at least games like Battelfield. Well the reason might be just that it is thought to be uncivilised that girls get shot, some antique believes ... to be honest i think it is indeed more society thing. In some years from know it might be widely accepted that girls shoot girls or men shoot girls in the !digitial world!.. but for now it still isnt! Sadly, because there is no real reason for it and thats why people say its ok as it is, but is it? ..just thinking
As you obviusly played with femals already it should concern you too that this part isnt reflected in games because it is already a kind of sexism. I dont know if you asked your female players what they think about it but i believe they wont say no to be what they are, even in a game.. thats my experience. But this personal freedom which can make a game more enjoyable isnt granted for no good reason.
ok here my question what makes an additon to the game worth to be thought of.
Is it or is not
a) better gameplay
c) more realism
d) personal freedome
you are free to add ..maby we find something that goes through as good reason to add female characters :)
@Turtle no need to be sorry i wasnt offended in any way ;) its about what you believe and thats ok with me as well.
@SGTIce Sorry this might be out of line. ( :P )
@Turtle well it is alright stating not liking something out of personal believes (i interprete that as such, hope thats alright). But without actually experiencing it ingame i for myself wouldnt just turn it out to be somthing bad. For example fighting a good war with a good female friend which is actually represented ingame as woman ingame instead of another guy. This does has more appiel to me.
And the extra effort... i agree it doesnt has to be done in the alpha stage it could be even done with an upcoming DLC .. somtimes after the actual release when the major problems are solved.
@Turtle ok the reasoning about the effort in camparison to other gameaspects is understandable.. BUT if its already there it can be played with, can be used for mods and we know its a SANDBOX game giving varity and on the long run is not wasted effort in my opinion. Basically i find it hard to estimate the effort in general, this could only a developer tell us. But there will most likely be female models in the game at some stage. They wont be naked so for compatibilty reason it is good if you can change there close (because its a sandbox game)..if so the only thing missing at the end to actually implement a female character could be boiled down to the voice acting, maby aditional motion capturing, implementing. Yes this does takes aditional effort but for reasons like possibilities in game and imersivness i think its worse it. And even if there are not that many woman in arma for myself i count me to the "small" group of players that this sugesstion can have an effect on, even if im not a woman i will very welcome this.
@Power-Mad and if it could be changed afterwards we could erase some comments here XD, aside from that..what impact does this "high" written there has anyway? i guess not much ? but i can be corrected.
The question to be raised is why so many people are actually against woman characters in arma3? It is just a additinal feature wish! I dont see what political corecctness has to do with that whatsoever?
it can be repeated a hundred times...
just the fact that there are more pressuring problems is accepted! But this doesnt give a valid reason to turn down any suggestion made to the game, as this is not the only suggestion made to game whish unfortunately gets alot of atentione because there swings with in alot of emotion, for some reason i dont personally understand.
Secondly nobody knows how many women played arma2,1... BUT it is not realy our place to decide whats worthwhile to be put into the game at the end of the day, its BIs decission. In that context it is probably good to mention that aiming for a specific player market is not such a bad idea at times, and yes girls play games too! Why shouldnt they play arma ?
..maby the fact that there are almost non FPS out there that show female characters can hold a digital gun might a reason!
Well.. your both kind of right. It is indeed named feedback tracker and as such doesnt imply it is mainly a bug tracker, and there are indeed some sugesstion been made already and that is just one of them. But as many comments it has gotten it might be indeed a good idea to have a forum threat on its own to that where more people have acess to this kind of discussion, which is indeed interesting :> at least there would not be a priority question every 5th post :D.
All the pro arguments there alreay are can be put nicly together in one statment why there should be playable female characters (profiles) in Arma 3...
@jimmy416 priority cant be changed(sadly) secondly in Arma2 there were no implementation to femal chars so its likely there wont be in Arma3. Models might be placed but Models are not equal to full customaziable, playable on any serve characters!
@Rezr your right for the fact that there might be more pressuring topics but than you are posting in the wrong one for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just cuse there are more sever gamewise problems, it doesnt render the possibility of such a feature meaningless in any way.
And further ... in Arma 3 we do have European armys fighting! Like France (all except u-boat), Poland (since 2004 for all roles), Germany (since 2001 for all forces) .. others also also do allowe woman in their ground forces..
Woman and their roles in military are changing! As it is a rather new development mostly grounding on the right of equality it isnt far fetched to expect more females in different military roles in the future! Also it is fair to say that the percentage will be still low, but that doesnt make them less valuable.
It is time to reflect this also in the game world, where there isnt much done yet to my knowlage in the shooter area. Why ist that? We aré not living in 1990 anymore. Women are getting more and more accepted in military roles. It is just a question of time before we see it in games more widely... It has to start somewhere.
Corona2172 .. it is your personal thought thats ok. But for some as myselfe i believe woman not being part of war and not able to be a figthers puts them in a stereotype role as well. It is a controvesial topic, and it doesnt make you a sexist. (However comments about field kitchens ect. do...)
The question is why would it make you thick playing with a woman in woman character but than it doesnt if the woman plays a male character but still being in your squad?
This actually became a discussion (most parts!), maby just maby this should be brought to the forum, would be fun reading :>.
I do think all will agree that this feature is not an urgent one, content wise! However it should be ackwnolaged that in Arma 2 there where no such options in the game implemented. Therefore it is very likely that it was not thought of to be implemented in Arma3 as well! Regardless the priority here, it is worth to be considered. And the alpha is the right place to do it as for the reason stated before.
For some it seems to be quite a contoversial topic. Obviously, as seen by the comments here! Put aside the extra afford for implementation, the arguments against it are often on a personal level. For example (1)"i dont shoot at woman", (2)"i dont want to see woman dying", (3)"the underware dilema" and (4)"woman are not capebable of war".
1)For some people this is indeed hypocritical. As in the thinking of equallity there is no difference if you should a male character or a femal chacter.
@SGTIce So its just aesthetics that there are only male characters? If Arma had only female characters it wouldnt matter than, obviusly!
For me there are 2 things that are plausible why there shouldnt be female player characters.
It doesnt matter if or if not woman are or will be doing duty at the front, and its very unlikely we will see Irani woman fighting in the army even in 2030. However, and first of all it is a sandbox game, and i believe its a good thing if a player has the possebility to play a female character if he wants to. Secondly it would be nice having descent female characters, as it could be very well used for mods,scenarios, mission ect. And third, as mentioned before i also believe that this could very well make Arma as War Simulation more appeling to woman, who do like shooting games already, as i know some myselfe. Therefore it has my vote.
The upside is indeed that the implementation will coste time and money. I indeed think there are more important things to implement, but still i would be happy to see that woman are likewise acknowledged as players.
would be something that the copilot, or pilot could do. Could be put in the mouse down menue and the light points where the player looks.