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Some sort of melee?
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Description

So I know this might be a bit of a big.. request. But, I wish there was some sort of melee in this game. I mean, when I'm sneaking up on a guard to take him out, what if I don't want to shoot at all? I end up with literally no other option.

Or in multiplayer when I run out of ammo, I end up running around like a chicken with my head cut off, trying to dodge bullets. There really needs to be some sort of melee implemented into the game. Real infantry wouldn't cower away from an opponent in CQB simply because they were out of ammo; they'd get just a couple inches closer and start brawling.

Details

Legacy ID
134516530
Severity
Feature
Resolution
Open
Reproducibility
N/A
Category
Gameplay

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you are not teached to stab repeatedly a person to kill him, goose, actually, that's pretty uneffective, if you know where to, 1 stab its enough

Yhea lets not turn this into some homicidal maniac meele take down.

Plus it'll be noisy as hell.

Goose added a comment.Jul 11 2013, 6:57 PM

@Dr Death: I disagree, it's like with a handgun... you don't just shoot once, even though one shot could be enough.

@Raoul1234: If you don't want a "homicidal maniac melee take down" then I suppose it would be better to leave knives out altogether... there's no avoiding the fact it's extremely violent.

Like I said before there's little point making some unrealistic system where you sneak up behind someone and it automatically kills them. That's something that belongs in arcade games, knives do not automatically kill... automatic takedowns do not belong in simulators or realistic games, it should be harder to kill someone with a knife than with a gun (and why not use a suppressed pistol anyways? Knives won't be completely quiet, targets will shriek and struggle, unlike in a Schwarzenegger movie).

I dont know goose, as far as hand to hand combat goes, its about disarming and subdue your victim, not just stab or slice them because that does sound like CoD. so mix that with some stealth and you could pretty much say a knife could be pretty much deadlier and silent compared to a gun.

BF3 already has an effectively realistic approach to this melee attack with a knife, sure it's all animated and requires the press of one button to initiatew the action, but if trained properly, the action required will feel natural and could be executed without much thought.

That said, I'm not saying BF is realistic, I cant think that taking someones dogtag really is the prime focus of a melee take down, so the animated take downs are rather over exagerated. But as I said, the approach is what counts. However knowing arma and animations between two persons, this could just look awkward. So just like we have to use our imaginations to visualize character getting into the vehicles without animated doors etc, I think we will need a basic, but effective melee take down, and use our imaginations to visualize it being more complicated than it really is.

Your point about a gun being superior over a knife, is a valid point, because a gun has range, where melee doesnt. However once again, you can however big gun you want, if someone sneaks up to you with a knife and subdues you and slits your throat, that gun meant nothing really. The point being, the request for melee is for stealth purposes, not to charge someone head on with a knife like CoD.

Melee should have three aspects:

  1. Rear silent takedowns (silent via smothering your enemy simultaneously so he can't scream). The person being attacked could counter it and break the takedown if they select a "counter" option in the context action menu fast enough.
  1. Frontal/side takedowns, these would take longer, and but the target would get a longer window to counter than from the rear, this would be less for stealth and more of a last ditch way to defend with minimal/no ammo.
  1. Stabbing/rifle butting/ pistol whipping (maybe even kicking?) similar to, but more refined than Dayz. The first hit stumbles the target for about 1 second, but it would take many hits to knock down the target, even then he is not dead, he must be executed in a way initiated similar to the takedowns. At any point until his death someone could kill the attacker and he will be alive, maybe needing first aid, but alive. This method would be a desperate way to kill, even more than front takedowns. More practically this could also be used to stun enemies at point blank range to allow you back off a bit and shoot them.

*This implementation along with them fixing pistols by not making them super weak would ensure melee could be implemented fairly realistically.

*Also unarmed attacks could be implemented, but you could only do rear takedowns (but unarmed means the counter window is just as big as an armed front takedown) or rifle-butt style melee via kicks and punches, but it would take far more hits to knock people down and finishing off downed targets would take much longer and the counter window would be substantial, so mainly it's just to stun enemies so you can get away, killing them unarmed would be the most risky option in the game.

also this would be good for smashing windows to set up an ambush as shooting just alerts your prey

Goose added a comment.Jul 15 2013, 7:17 PM

@ShotgunSheamuS: knife melee could be stealthy, however even at close range guns probably have the advantage.

Knives have to be stabbed into someone, past ribs, etc, however guns instantly send a bullet very deep into someone (or completely through them).

Knife kills are fine but I'm not a fan of "takedowns", etc. I think if you sneak up behind someone, you should have to stab them multiple times.

This could be quick and relatively quiet, simply "clickclickclickclick" and they die before they can even turn around.

However if someone "charged" you, they would be unable to easily kill you with an "automatic takedown", since the target would naturally run away / shoot back and kill them.

Think about this: why would a stab with a knife be somehow "inherently" more lethal than being shot with a .45 or a 9mm? Realistic answer, it wouldn't be (although pistols would be pretty ineffective if ArmA 3 properly modelled body armour).

I don't think knives should be something unusually deadly, sneaking up behind someone with a knife should be about as damaging as sneaking up behind them and shooting them. That's fair and it's also pretty easy to do, instead of pressing one button and instantly killing them.

I'm not against melee combat, I just want it to make sense (within the ArmAverse). If I can't kill someone with a single handgun bullet (excluding headshots) then I shouldn't be able to kill them with a single stab.

I also think knives should include some skill and a normal chance of failure, which automatic takedowns either do not include, or do so in an unrealistic way...

Maffa added a subscriber: Maffa.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM
Maffa added a comment.Aug 5 2013, 4:03 PM

aaah this is gray area, really... ive found myself in the situation to be able to take down an enemy stealthly in Arma II (against human opponents, AI have magic hears and eyes and can pierce thru solid objects even if you stay still)

In A3 there should be some option of melee, since there is also underwater options. You know where i am getting at (SEAL anybody?), and in any case when i think about underwater fights i think more about knives and harpoons, not to assault rifles.

But depending on how this will be developed it can turn very bad. Lets say i second the proposal but i hope it can be turned of if OP or badly done

ArmA 3 should implement a melee system like Red Orchestra 2 with bayonets or rifle butts, knife option would be good too.

Melee should be very hard to use (low chance of hitting hard) if not actually not possible at all - unless you sneak up on someone and use melee which would trigger the following animation/result...

If [x] is equipped:
Rifle - melee button triggers knock out from rifle butt.
Pistol - melee button triggers knock out from downwards strike pistol grip.
combat knife - melee button triggers silent kill (hand over mouth, slit the throat5).

arma 3 needs melee it totaly needs it

i76 added a subscriber: i76.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM
i76 added a comment.Aug 22 2013, 2:13 PM

Gameplay related request... will be ignored.

the arma series are meant to be military simulators and the military do use knives on a rare occasion and mainly use them for cutting rope and are rarely used for combat but it is still good to have because it is annoying when ruining out of ammo and then having to loot all enemies while beaning shot at

I've been looking around but cannot find a video. But, there's an old game, SOCOMII for the PS2 IIRC that had a great take down system. You had to sneak up on the target and, it was terribly difficult to do even this as they almost ALWAYS discovered you. Then, once you initiated the kill your character would cover the targets mouth, then stab their throat, then two under the right arm. I've thought for years this was the best depiction of a stealthy knife kill in any video game I've played. Wish I could find a video of it to post! THIS I'd be ok with having in the game. While I think fisticuffs of some kind is also something we should have, I think it should be an OMGWTF moment. Say you run around a corner only to bodily collide with a hostile player coming the other way and you both tangle up. THEN I could see grabbing them and trying to subdue them or put them in a hold or something, choke them out or bash their head on a rock etc. But I don't think it should be a planned thing so much unless you're making the effort for that silent kill and then, GFL with that! It should be very tough to get the drop on 'em. Although, I think it'd actually be easier to get a silent kill on another player than AI as people tend to get focused on whatever they're looking at vs the AI scanning with their rearward facing eyeballs lol.

i think if you are silent and outside of the FOV of a real person (90 side-to-side and 40 up-down) there should be no way they could spot you before doing a kill

The thing you all have to realize is that unless you're either A: special forces or B: fighting in WWII, a real life infantry man is extremely unlikely to use any kind of "melee", as you see in CoD or Halo, or even Battlefield. As this game is supposed to pose as more of a mil-sim, I can't really see melee having much of a place with Arma unless you're constantly role playing as a green beret, and even then. The REAL problem with stealth (if that's why you want knives) in Arma is that the AI's detection and aiming haven'y been perfected yet, making it far too easy for them to spot and hit you with every shot as soon as you're nearby.

well, ever since OFP all you doo in ArmA campaigns is being a Specops

AD2001 added a subscriber: AD2001.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM

@Dr_Death

Didn't the devs say that in the Arma 3 campaign you'll play as an ordinary soldier?

HAHAHAHHA.

dont you remember? you are a SpecOps stranded after a failed operation in Altis, and you have to take care of helping the insurgents to take the CSAT down

Wasn't that idea scrapped?

No, i think i read/saw/heard that pretty recently.

EDIT: Yes:

Synopsis
"Tensions rise as NATO peacekeeping forces begin to leave The Republic of Altis: a strategic fault-line between crumbling European influence and a powerful, resurgent East. But when a key radar facility drops off the grid, a Mediterranean flashpoint risks escalating into global conflict.

Caught up in a situation beyond their control, a botched withdrawal traps the men of Task Force Aegis and a clandestine group of UKSF operators in a fight for survival. With only a crippled local resistance to turn to, they must rapidly adapt to overcome an unforgiving environment and defeat a brutal enemy."

http://www.arma3.com/launch-countdown

SgtHL added a subscriber: SgtHL.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM
SgtHL added a comment.Aug 27 2013, 2:27 PM

There really needs to be a melee option. To this day armed forces around the world are trained in what to do when/if your weapon jams or you are out of bullets. There is also the problem of silent sentry/patrol removal (no not sneaking up on someone that´s waiting for something to happen, thats makebelieve unless he´s asleep, but if you are stationary and he´s walking right past you...)

A rifle is dangerous even when jammed or empty. You now have a heavy spear and/or club to use against enemies. If the enemy still has bullets and sees you coming.. you die.

A knife in the hands of a trained professional is a very dangerous thing. Thrust in and slash on the way out in the right spot and it´s all over, very quickly.

The melee should not be a stupid cod/bf instakill from any angle and distance though. You need to be properly placed and the physics need to be realistic. If your target moves, you miss. If your target has a modern ballistic vest with "plates" your attack on that part of the body should be ineffective.

On the other hand, if you manage to get behind your enemy within arms-length the kill IS easy. There is no real "countermeasure" to something like that, that´s just computergames bulls*it.
Human reactiontime is too slow for you to be able to counter a knife struck to the side of your throat (or inbetween your ribs, your kidneys etc). Forget "timed events" where you counter that attack with Hollywood-ninjaskills, no such thing is possible in real life even if you are from the SAS or Navy Seals. If they see you coming.. that is a different matter.

Only possible defence: don´t get attacked from behind in the first place.

this is true. when people in the military run out of ammo or there gun jams and if they want to open bottles they have knives.(also for stabbing)

ushiri added a subscriber: ushiri.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM

I remember back in 2001 when I played " Operation flashpoint" when I was out of ammo and couldnt do a thing cause I ran out of ammo.

Still same thing with Arma 3 12 years later.

everyone who claims that there is no need for a melee your idiots there are that many different MP mods out there that would benifit highly from this capability placed into the game Island Life and Hunger Games for instance and yeah its pretty realistic to strike someone in the face with the butt of your rifle, bayonet someone, stab someone or even punch a PW in the stomach or face because they're non-compliant. IMO this is an essential update that needs to be implemented into this game with the tech that's available to the devs. What is that going to be the big seller for ARMA IV you can go into H2H combat with enemy NPCs. Not every NPC you come across can or needs to be killed (it's against the Geneva Convention to kill everything you come into contact with) Voting UP

Alex72 added a subscriber: Alex72.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM

Don't call people idiots. Make you look like one.

Melee, no thanks.

Alex, care to explain why?

Another thought is to be able to knock enemies unconscious using the rifle butt. You get more points for sparing the enemy (or less points depending if the amount of enemies alive carries over to the next mission in a campaign) but it adds a whole new dimension to the game, where we dont HAVE to kill. But a rifle butt attack would be something at least to improve the melee aspect.

why would you get more points for knocking out someone, it's war, not splinter cell

You are completely missing my point (lol) The point system in the game can be used in various ways.

It can be used for scoring, but it is mainly used for deciding how to proceed in a mission, well usually anyway.

The higher the points (meaning you killed many people or completed tasks) could change the way the mission is played out.

Negative points usually occur when the mission is failed.

I, in no way associate this game with Splinter Cell, in any form at all. This is a Military sim, and there are some things you cannot do in this game without using features that almost seem arcade-ish. But it is not used for that at all.

Say you rifle butt someone, it adds to a variable to say you knocked him out, and a few others too. This variable alongside the point system can easily create another path for the player to take.

In ArmA 2's campaign, there were main missions and side missions. If you do the side missions the outcome of the main mission will be different. But the side missions also have many different ways of completing it, either by failing it, or for example you killed the commander, but not enough of the enemy troops, or you killed the troops but not the commander etc. Then depending on how many people you kill (for your overall score) aside from killing the commanders troops for example can have 2 different outcomes.

Anyways enough of that, back on topic.

  1. Melee for Kills
  2. Melee for KO's

If you knock someone out, you can still hit em and kill em lol. War is brutal, although I would expect the NATO side to capture, but maybe the enemy side not to.

any animators here? find me and we can make it as addon in perfect look

@Woodpeckersam: i dunno i think all regular armies will want to capture...

Kirill added a subscriber: Kirill.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM
Kirill added a comment.Sep 8 2013, 8:29 PM

Approx. How to implement a melee? One hit - one kill?) No? How?. You can read the police reports of an attack with a knife. People who survive 5-20-30 stab wounds. As a countermeasure to think? Or the victim would stand and watch?

Suicideking: no, if that would be true, most armies would use tazers, in war you are in there to kill, you only nock and capture HVT

Also, Kirill, those people are the ones that dont know how to use a knife, a real soldier is told how to use it in a way he can 1-hit-kill most of the people in a good placed stab

-1 VOTE

only because

  • The AI "system" itself makes this impossible to do

... if this is focused on PVP then grab a copy of COD or BF because hand-to-hand combat is very rare and a LAST RESORT (YES we are required to train for it) but don't let that "Expendables" Hollywood nonsense mislead you.

Not to mention a mod for this already exists on ArmAholic

Improve AI = +1
This = -1

But I do wish you +1 guys the best on this topic...
a good idea shouldn't be ignored

Would like to add per your argument:

  • you are wrong about all the below... this is SIMULATION not fantasy and the real military does not use those tactics... the problem isn't lack of "melee"
  • it is simply the fact you aren't playing ArmA (OFP) right.
  1. you should conserve your ammunition
  2. you shouldn't "sneak up on a guard" aka "lone-wolf"
  3. this isn't the Matrix... "dodge bullets"
  4. REAL INFANTRY would use their training and NOT throw down their gun(s) to have a fist fight... where did you get that from???

You're obviously some kid whom acquires all your "knowledge" watching Rambo, Gangs of New York, Expendables, amongst other Hollywood favorites then argues opinion over fact.
Do yourself a favor - put your head in the books and watch some documentaries before embarrassing yourself again.

  • Per the BELOW ---

"I mean, when I'm sneaking up on a guard to take him out, what if I don't want to shoot at all? I end up with literally no other option.

Or in multiplayer when I run out of ammo, I end up running around like a chicken with my head cut off, trying to dodge bullets. There really needs to be some sort of melee implemented into the game. Real infantry wouldn't cower away from an opponent in CQB simply because they were out of ammo; they'd get just a couple inches closer and start brawling. "

Kirill added a comment.Sep 9 2013, 7:01 AM

Weapon of last resort - the pistol. It - a melee weapon. If empty pistol holder - you're doing something wrong. Your solution - surrender)
Mechanics of melee very difficult to simulate. I can identify exception:
SURPRISE hit from behind (Objective-stun or kill) But this is special operation, not combined arms battle. But 90% of the soldiers are not prepared for the "one hit - a loss of consciousness." What do, perk for spec? COD?

You want a "realism"? Open tin cans with a knife, cut out the names on the tree. Nothing more.
Or let's take the case. You banging the enemy with his bayonet, he died 15 minutes later from loss of blood. But for those 15 minutes, it kills you and your section.

Repeat. The mechanics of a good melee - do not realize in this game! In ARMA 5 - possible. Melee in combined arms combat - 0.1%. You want this? Better that bipod, disposable rocket launchers and fragments? But This is 90% of the battle.

i think both of you are exxagerating everything.

melee should be added because of both campaign use of this feature and modding feature.

Lol of course most armies (NATO included) are out to kill, but if you have a choice you'd want to capture, for intelligence, for example.

yes, but they do not knock the HVT, they just arrest them, thing wich you could do in ACE2

Perfect for stealth, if the AI is improved and it is harder for them to spot you, this should be added. +1

+1 - agreed. The ability to butt stroke or knife an opponent is sorely missing, especially from stealth missions

as an ex soldier I agree completely ,soldiers are taught at least some basic hand to hand combat for those exact cases where you are low on ammo and have a close range enemy just waiting to be picked off

+1 I was a naysayer too once, until I ran out of ammo on an SP "escape" type mission and so did the AI opfor that I was battling. We literally stood and stared at each other with NO OTHER OPTION available. Stealth kills too would be nice to have as an option. I dislike BF games now but the one thing they got right was a simple knife CQB kill/cut fence. Make the fence cut longer (more realistic) and use the same tool. Firearm in hand instead just a generic swing to suggest a pistol whip or butt stock strike.

Maybe free movement knife like what the razer edge can do

If they don't let you hit an enemy with your rifle or carry a knife, then there should at least be some way to program it in without having 100000 ammo for an ax or a crowbar or something. Maybe they can bring something in from how DayZ Standalone's improving it, I don't know.

Wow the thread that will not die! :P

Personally, I'm for having SOME kind of basic melee. I like the rifle butt or barrel stab idea personally. Though having a knife could be handy for more than just melee attacks. Cutting fences and setting claymores comes to mind....assuming you have to string your wires manually and it isn't some magical auto-sensing kind you see in games now days (aahh I miss the old Infiltration mod for UT99).

I say, let the Dev's consult with their contacts in the armed forces. See what kind of info they get from them as to how realistic this would be. I'll go with whatever they say :) This assumes they didn't ask about knives in the first place of course.

I think it should be a muzzle thump with something along these lines for damage.

All hits should cause blury vision, low stamina and maybe wobble. Hits must be consecutively applied within no more than 2 seconds of each other.

1st hit Body: Stuns the person for 1 second

2nd hit Body: Stuns the person for 3 seconds.

3rd hit Body: Knocks the person down and stuns them for 10 seconds.

Head hits:
1st hit head: Stuns person for 3 seconds.

2nd hit head: Stuns person for 6 seconds and knocks them down.

3rd hit head: Knocks the person out

4th hit head: Kills

i think that would be fine for buttstock, but what about blades? or why not a good hit in the back of the head = knock/kill?

i agree with melee provided that it is reasonable and doesn't work like in CoD and everybody is running around throwing knives that do more damage than tanks

Ha! Still no knifies. Thank godz!

dude i'm 90% shure this will not happen

jedd added a subscriber: jedd.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM
jedd added a comment.Dec 11 2013, 3:49 AM

As a modder, I need to express the need for a built-in melee system. Or at least a basis to build our own melee on. I am considering using Arma3 as a platform for my next mod (and submit it to the "Make Arma Not War" contest), but the lack of a melee system is really holding me back at this point.

A feature like this would completely change my view of ARMA 3, and would be very entertaining in my opinion lol. I think this would be a great addition.

I agree for a knife in Arma3, not for CQC, 'cause is impossibile, but for cutting fences, breaking glasses of windows or something like that.
Maybe it's enough only some animations and modders can do the rest...

i hate standing in front of the fence like an idiot, thinking that the enemy can trasform a backyard in Fort Knox with it, or being forced to use a mag to break the glass of a window, trying to fight bullets deviation...

i dont think a knife in real life can break a window. they use kicks to do that. But the real reason for knifes is not just the enviroment but also the lack of ammo

AD2001 added a comment.Feb 3 2014, 7:50 PM

DayZ for Arma 2 had some kind of melee, so it's possible with the engine.

DayZ SA is using ArmA 2 engine and handles melee

  1. This is practically impossible right now, because AI are about as close to All-Seeing as possible. They would spot you even if you were 50 meters behind them, stationary, in the dark.
  2. As long as it isn't OP it would be fine. Meaning - it has to have a long animation, it shouldn't work 100% of the time, it shouldn't be completely silent, and you shouldn't be able to do it unless the target is unaware of you, and you are behind them. We don't want any COD hack n' slash nonsense.

If it is kept to these restrictions, it will be a great addition to the game, and will add a whole new element of stealth into the game.

Edqar added a subscriber: Edqar.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM

I would like to see this function in A3, even for breaking window. HE rpg doesn't go through window wihtout blowing up, and it's pretty stupid waste ammo for it.

I was playing a mission once, and I ran completely out of ammo, and when I tried to loot this guy's body, he was just unconcious, and I couldn't loot him until he was dead. He was about to get up to shoot me, and I only had a C4 charge, so I had to use that instead of what it was supposed to be used for.

can you let people unconcious in arma 3?

Bayonett aswell as melee options would be good.

Jaska added a subscriber: Jaska.May 7 2016, 11:42 AM
Jaska added a comment.Jul 26 2014, 8:36 AM

Yeah it's kinda stupid that you can't do anything at all after getting out of ammunition, you have no other choice than running. That's especially bad when you're right beside the enemy

Such situations are rare and most of the time you still have team mates around, but still i can't see why not. Since DayZ has it and DayZ is BI game

Knife Impossible?

Bayonett was in ACE 2 if i remember, never used that. What you need that for? Ai will kill yif you try to get on good distance

it was on i44, not the most useful thing, but it was quite useful on CQB.

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