I saw a test on YouTube where a chronograph revealed a 20% increase in feet-per-second for a pistol and a negligible decrease in fps for rifles.

One "game-balancing" disadvantage of a suppressor would be that the additional length would make it clumsier in tight quarters.

Thats one of the two main reasons not to use a suppressor all the time. The other being that they are relatively fragile compared to the weapon itself.

"game balancing" is for shitty games based on fantasy.

I think what johncage means is that as long as Arma realistically simulates weapons it will have no "best" weapon to offset balances, because the "best" weapon will change with the situations and tactics at hand.

And I agree with him, actually. It would be nice if he could better articulate his thoughts, though.

I can confirm this issue. In game an unsuppressed 6.5mm kills 99% of targets with one shot center mass, a suppressed 6.5mm kills most targets in two center mass hits.

The poster is right that suppressors do not reduce bullet velocity, although I disagree about the increase in accuracy. The reduced turbulence is a minimal benefit compared to the disadvantage of the contact with the baffles.

Baffle strikes ARE very bad for accuracy, but they won't occur under normal conditions with well made suppressors in good condition. One that's seeing heavy use and abuse in a combat zone.... yeah, might get bent out of alignment. Interestingly, there are (at least) two viable designs in use by the US Army. The one that I'm familiar with uses wipers instead of baffles, such that it's actually a series of solid membranes in the path of the bullet. When the first round is fired, it punctures the membranes. Those are good for about 10 shots or so before the membranes have to be replaced. They were used on M9s by some long range surveillance folks in case they were discovered while hiding in their hide sites. I don't think that kind of suppressor would be used for many other applications though.

@Traxus: Yes, the Russian PBS series uses wipers too. You're right baffle strikes don't occur very often on well-made suppressors.

Glad to hear that I am not the only person who is consistently sickened by this "false handicap". Hopefully this gets fixed.

Upvoted. But for the sake of balancing they will never increase the damage of suppressed weapons to be on par with unsuppressed ones.

Uziyahu made a valid point; there are other ways to adjust balance without going to that extreme. The weapon could be made to be heavier, hindering the ability to hold the weapon steady for long periods of time while standing or kneeling- It could be made to be more unwieldy in close quarters (as mentioned by Uziyahu). There are things that they could do to adjust it, but I fear that you are correct pops; they will probably go for game over realism. However, as an 11b I can attest that most of us do not roll around with suppressors on; not because it would be too expensive, but because there are plenty of drawbacks to constantly having a large suppressor on a weapon that is generally unnecessary anyways for conventional troops.

Thank you OP, voted your issue up. I definitely think a game meant to be realistic should portray suppressors realistically and not like how they portray them in movies...

basic of bullets and physics (longer the runway more accuracy at distance)

barrel = runway

silencer = extended barrel

silencers mostly suppress the gases and the way they dissipate the chamber

need a combo of good suppressor and weapon to get a hushed pop off in REAL LIFE

There are different kinds of suppressors, with variety of structure and working theory, and some does slow down bullets.
Although I don't think these kind of suppressors should be use here, only BIS know how the 6.5mm caseless ammo should work with......

@CXN2615

As far as I know, those types of suppressors that physically make contact with the bullet in order to slow them down are not really widely used anymore... From what I've read they were used back in the Vietnam conflict era...

Indeed those suppressors have been obsolete for a long while and certainly won't be around in two decades from now... In a perfect world ArmaIII would simulate both supersonic and subsonic ammo with and without suppressors, sounds, effects and physics wise. I don't see this coming though.

Doesn't suppressors also reduce visible light that is emitted in the bullet launch?

Suppressors reduce the muzzle flash to almost zero, mostly removing a visible flash completely.

Brush suppressors are used in the HK MP5SD, to reduce the speed of a common 9x19mm Luger round below sonic speed.

Suppressors shouldn't have such an effect on bullets.

As for the comments about "balancing"... seriously? It's supposed to be a military simulator, not Battlefield 4. Some weapons will be "better" without any significant disadvantages in-game. "Balancing" is achieved by the mission makers creating balancd scenarios, not by deliberately altering real-life statistics, capabilities, etc.

58 upvotes, zero downvotes.

Also I have not looked into how ArmA 3 suppressors modify sound - but I know from ArmA 2 that in certain cases they reduced audible range from 1000 meters to a mere 50!

Unrealistically silent weapons are also something that should be looked at fixing...

I agree with Goose. Balancing is a dirty word in my opinion. It makes any first person shooter unrealistic and makes the different weapons pointless... Just pick the one you think looks the coolest and go with it...

Good ticket!

It's probably not a bug, but BiS' "balancing", but I would really like it fixed.

I was not advocating artificial game-balacing, but the balance that comes from realistic simulation. Although the VSS Vintorez seems to be a very well-rounded weapon system.

WHY THE FUCK IS THERE A BALANCING SECTION FOR ARMA WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS

Balance should be done by implementing the realistic disadvantages - Weapon length and bulk primarily, and also suppressor wearing out.

Amen, I would also like to hear when firing standard ammo through a suppressor the bullet crack as you do in real life, only with a reduced "bang" from the gasses leaving the barrel. If using subsonic ammo you will then lose the sonic crack the bullet makes when breaking the sound barrier.

Needs to be addressed before launch. Should be quite simple to add subsonic ammunition and remove the velocity & accuracy penalty to the standard loads.

Unrealistic it is now, what the matters with suppressors? I mean what types of probs you can have with it ( heat, malfunctions... )? Need reals data!

Maybe is the best way for balancing with reals data to have a realistic disadvantage with suppressors like heat, malfunctions... But if the game is doing a bad balancing, no good! Simulation first.

You lost me at the word "balancing".

Suppressors do have negative aspects. But nothing that would affect current gameplay. They overheat and loose some of their effectiveness, they create a barrel mirage (hot air causes blurred target image with sights) and increase the rifle length and make them less maneuverable in close quarters.

But please do us all a favour and remove "balancing" from your vocabulary :D

To those that say subsonic ammunition is not used in the military (other tickets), they are. But not by the Grunts.

I don't want "game balancing". You start to answer at my question. So with heat it's loosing accuracy? A visual effect can be good, and simulating the heat too!

Not accuracy, sound suppression. Usually the first round(s) are not as effectively suppressed as the following shots until the suppressor "overheats" and the sound level increases.

You can shoot the suppressor wet with oil, grease or water to increase the effectiveness of the first shots (especially the rubber suits would benefit from this feature)

The heat would also affect unsuppressed weapons and create a shimmering blur (look at the engine exhausts of helicopters in ArmA3) which is basically the same.

Yes this effect is a lack now, maybe good to do a ticket for it!

Its better then in Arma 2 though - there you were FORCED to use Subsonic ammo, just because your gun had a suppressor on.

I'd give a damn about the "increased effectiveness" of subsonic ammo, if I'm 300m away, normal ammo suffices, and the suppressed effect is still enough to conceal a sniper/marksman. Plus, IRL you'd be able to use both types of ammo, and not be FORCED to use subsonic.

But its an improvement, in Arma 2 the difference in muzzle velocity was about 60% (60% SLOWER!!!), so a 900m/s round 'd be 350m/s.

Yes ArmA 3 is better than ArmA 2. Still this is a very significant issue.

In battlefield 3 they did the same thing which was that if you suppressed a weapon it automatically gave you different ammo. I would rather this game give you the choice of two different types of ammo for a weapon. Supersonic and Subsonic are ok. Also when it comes to the .45 round its subsonic anyways. There should be no change what-so-ever in the damage it deals when equipped with a suppressor. If you have not tried it take a .45 ACP-C2 and shoot someone in the head unsuppressed and then suppress it and it will take 2-3 shots. That is unrealistic. Personally I don't care how far away someone is. if you shoot them in the face, preferably the brain box, they would die instantly. There are considerably unrealistic effects with the Suppressors in this game.

So it looks like severity and priority have both been set to none. Does this mean that this issue will be ignored by BIS?

In the latest patches ive had a hard time killing enemies with suppressors. Just tested some SF mission now where its imperative to take down enemies fast before they have time to radio your location. No matter how well I aim and where I shoot them they just hunk over quickly and snap back into position.

If im lucky enough to overcome the massive sway after holding my breath I get them with my last bullet in the mag. But most often they just turn around after I hit them 3-4 times and shoot me between my eyes with no effort. This is from maybe 30-40 meters with a rifle.

This needs to be improved. More power to the weapons as they seem to have gotten much weaker lately.

This is a serious issue as suppressors are more and more common in the military. Not just because of sound reduction (easier to communicate/listen), recoil reduction and flash suppression (insurgency already have night vision devices to spot night attacks).

It's not about silent kills. That's what a dedicated suppressed weapon is used for (.300AAC/300Whisper, .22lr, .45ACP,...).

The chance to be spotted by light/sound are reduced, sometimes enough to get the job done.

The physics are completely off in ArmA 3. But this seems to be ignored by the Developers.

It bothers me quite a bit that an unrealistic game like BF3 actually has this aspect more realistic than ARMA 3 so far... In BF3, the effectiveness is reduced with a suppressor, but it states it's because you're using subsonic rounds. While in ARMA 3 it seems that they made it completely unrealistic in where the suppressor itself is decreasing the weapon's effectiveness...

Upvoting for the sake of realism. They should also remove the flash of light that is made when firing with a suppressor at night.

I've worked for a suppressor manufacturer, documenting their field testing, here are some basic things about a modern suppressor:

1. Does not lower the muzzle velocity. Often increases a few FPS due to longer effective barrel. The bullet does not touch the baffles at all. No one makes a "shoot through" suppressor anymore, where you shoot through solid baffles with the first rounds.
2. Does not silence the gun. The sound is at hearing safe levels, but still quite loud. What that does though, is that locating you from the receiving end of the range based on sound is extremely difficult if not impossible. The supersonic crack of the bullet is a lot louder than the distant pop of the suppressed rifle shooting at you. This part is very realistic in the game. (Unsuppressed rifle shot still can be heard at medium distances, and this part basically fails in the game.)
3. Significantly reduces muzzle flash if not completely removing it. Same goes for ground disturbance, (flying sand etc), again making in much more difficult to locate you by looking. First round sometimes has more flash than the rounds after that, so that the 1st round has some flash and the rest have none. (This is "First round pop".)
4. Can be used in machineguns and .50cal rifles.
5. A suppressor made for machinegun can be used with extremely long bursts.
6. Does not make the accuracy worse, often improves it slightly.
7. The POI change is usually small, often in the class of 20mm at 100m. A rifle with long, thin barrel gets affected more than a one with short and thick one, due to obvious reasons.
8. Gets hot in repeated shot rifle use and very hot in machinegun use. ("Look at me!" in Thermals..) Looking through a scope when you have a very hot suppressor on the end of the muzzle = lots of mirage. Bad for long range. Not simulated in the game and not needed imo.
9. Rifle with subsonic ammo and a suppressor is really silent. Less sound than an air gun. Still it sends lets say a 12 gram 7.62mm bullet at just below the speed of sound, and therefore still has nice punch.
10. They are made of steel. You can break a lightweight one if you shoot 12 magazines full auto. A machinegun-suppressor on the other hand doesn't care about such minor things.
11. Increases the cyclic rate of full auto weapons due to increased back pressure to the gun mechanism.

Some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMBz6HeGf0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cGr2eriu_4

And to add as a footnote, I hope the rifle power would not be cut in half in a realistic game. I think that is a bit silly, when we have artillery that can wipe out a football field of enemies with one shot from 20km away.... :)

ballistics need to fix completely - http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11989

Created a mod to counter the damage reduction: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?167591-Tier1-Silencer-Fix

While this mod works for communities that use mods, it's preferrable that BI fixes this issue and we won't need the mod.

Is this issue still being worked on, for a fix in a future patch?

Judging from the amount of votes in favor, and no votes against - the opinion is unanimous, the suppressors should not reduce a bullet's velocity to 60-70%, it would only boost the velocity.

I've tested multiple guns with ProvingGround(with bullet speed) and projectile tracing script(check penetration),it seems bullets act almost the same way with/with out suppressor,for .45ACP in pistol it even get faster with it. So I think this issue should be resolved?

I think actually the ballistics were the same but the damage was less. Please test damage with multiple weapons with and without suppressor before confirming issue as resolved.

@galzohar
Yeah,after tested with man and light vehicle,the suppressor one is almost half the damange.That's werid,if same bullet hit same thing with same speed,it should do exactly the same damage!
NOT RESOLVED yet.

^bug was still in the current build, last I checked

The suppressors in-game should neither reduce the bullet velocity or the damage

It seems like a case of "balancing" over realism. Anyways, "balance" is left to the mission maker if they want to make suppressors rare items or not.

The problem is Arma 3 doesn't have the subsonic ammunitions that Arma 2 had, so someone at some point figured they set the suppressor to work like it was shooting subsonic rounds when it wasn't.

@ProGamer
But they goes same speed, It's more awkward to have a parameter(sliencer) beside the ammo/target type, velocity, and impact angle effect on "damage", while they've already did great job on penetration

Subsonic ammo travels slower than regular ammo, but it shouldn't be less damaging/lethal than regular ammo.

It could even be that it wouldn't penetrate properly (at certain ranges) and the bullet ricochets (or similar) within the body of the target, which would have a devastating effect on the victim.

Of course the damage is greatly reduced. There is much less kinetic engery in the round. While the damage might be the same at 30,50,100 m, or the effective damage even better, it'll be greatly reduced after that distance.

The effective (lethal) range for a 7.62 subsonic, shot by a silenced sniper rifle is set with 170m.
The smaller the round, the less kinetic energy it stores at low speeds, the less effective range it has.

The misconception here is that arma is a simulator when it is not. It's a pseudo realistic "mil-sim". But it is also a game, and as with any game there are going to have to be balancing. If you want to be detected less easily you are going to have to sacrifice something else. Likewise if an enemy is shooting at you and you can't hear them you want some extra time as a player to try to locate them.

I think this is something that the ACE community can work on. But for us normal players it's fine as it is. The only beef I have is that muzzle flash isn't removed on silenced guns, your gun still makes this glowy effect when you fire. But frankly I don't know if that's something that's realistic or not, just something I imagine isn't. Less of a balance issue, more of an aesthetics issue.

"But it is also a game, and as with any game there are going to have to be balancing"

Brace yourselves, ProGamer is coming!

Seriously? It's two different ammunition types. It's not balancing, its laziness or lack of time and resources.

We shouldn't have to wait for a mod to fix it. And Arma should never need to artificially balance weapons, ever.

Don't agree with the subsonic comments.

First of all, full-power ammunition doesn't magically become subsonic when used in a suppressed gun.

Second, subsonic ammunition is less powerful and has far less effective range than normal ammunition, so in many cases, it wouldn't even be used.

Third, a lot of subsonic ammunition won't even reliably cycle the action of a weapon intended for use with full-power rifle ammunition.

Fourth, all of the .45 ACP handguns are already subsonic.

Actuality,in the game now,those bullets don't become subsonic at all,they trave the same speed with/without suppresser.
What's more,they have same behaviour when penetrate walls, blocks, trees.... the only "magical" things happen when it hit a man or a car,suppressed bullet with same speed just doesn't cost as much damage as unsuppressed one.

Using "subsonic ammunition" as argument isn't only bull!@#! because you use the same ammunition, it's also bull!@#! because in the end even with a suppressor the speed of the bullet is the same as without a suppressor. Why should the same bullet flying at the same speed do less damage?

The velocity is fine (unaffected by suppressor), but damage is wrong (affected by suppresor for no good reason other than lame balance excuses which should be done via realistic disadvantages like simulating the fact your weapon is longer and heavier).

The following code is extracted from weapons_f.pbo, with the further path weapons_f>a3>weapons_f>acc>config.bin

class muzzle_snds_H_MG: muzzle_snds_H
{

		displayName = "$STR_A3_cfgWeapons_muzzle_snds_H_MG0";
		picture = "\A3\weapons_F\Data\UI\gear_acca_snds_H_MG.paa";
		model = "\A3\Weapons_F\Machineguns\M200\lmg_suppressor";
		class ItemInfo: ItemInfo
		{
			mass = 5;
			class MagazineCoef
			{
				initSpeed = 0.6;
			};
			class AmmoCoef
			{
				hit = 0.8;
				visibleFire = 0.8;
				audibleFire = 0.6;
				visibleFireTime = 1.0;
				audibleFireTime = 1.0;
				cost = 1.0;
				typicalSpeed = 0.6;
				airFriction = 1.0;
			};
			muzzleEnd = "zaslehPoint";
			alternativeFire = "Zasleh2";
			modes[] = {"manual","close","short","medium","far_optic1","far_optic2"};
			class manual: Mode_FullAuto
			{
				reloadTime = 0.075;
				dispersion = 0.00093;
				recoil = "recoil_auto_mk200";
				recoilProne = "recoil_auto_prone_mk200";
				begin1[] = {"A3\sounds_f\weapons\silenced\silent-25",0.8912509,1,200};
				begin2[] = {"A3\sounds_f\weapons\silenced\silent-26",0.8912509,1,200};
				soundBegin[] = {"begin1",0.5,"begin2",0.5};
				closure1[] = {"A3\sounds_f\weapons\closure\closure_rifle_2",0.70794576,1,50};
				closure2[] = {"A3\sounds_f\weapons\closure\closure_rifle_3",0.70794576,1,50};
				soundClosure[] = {"closure1",0.5,"closure2",0.5};
				weaponSoundEffect = "DefaultRifle";
				soundContinuous = 0;
				soundBurst = 0;
				minRange = 0;
				minRangeProbab = 0.3;
				midRange = 5;
				midRangeProbab = 0.7;
				maxRange = 10;
				maxRangeProbab = 0.04;
				showToPlayer = 1;
			};
			class close: manual
			{
				burst = 10;
				aiRateOfFire = 0.5;
				aiRateOfFireDistance = 50;
				minRange = 10;
				minRangeProbab = 0.05;
				midRange = 20;
				midRangeProbab = 0.7;
				maxRange = 50;
				maxRangeProbab = 0.04;
				showToPlayer = 0;
			};
			class short: close
			{
				burst = 8;
				aiRateOfFire = 2;
				aiRateOfFireDistance = 300;
				minRange = 50;
				minRangeProbab = 0.05;
				midRange = 150;
				midRangeProbab = 0.7;
				maxRange = 300;
				maxRangeProbab = 0.04;
			};
			class medium: close
			{
				burst = 7;
				aiRateOfFire = 4;
				aiRateOfFireDistance = 600;
				minRange = 200;
				minRangeProbab = 0.05;
				midRange = 300;
				midRangeProbab = 0.7;
				maxRange = 500;
				maxRangeProbab = 0.1;
			};
			class far_optic1: medium
			{
				requiredOpticType = 1;
				showToPlayer = 0;
				burst = 3;
				aiRateOfFire = 10;
				aiRateOfFireDistance = 1000;
				minRange = 300;
				minRangeProbab = 0.05;
				midRange = 500;
				midRangeProbab = 0.4;
				maxRange = 650;
				maxRangeProbab = 0.01;
			};
			class far_optic2: far_optic1
			{
				burst = 3;
				requiredOpticType = 2;
				minRange = 400;
				minRangeProbab = 0.05;
				midRange = 750;
				midRangeProbab = 0.7;
				maxRange = 900;
				maxRangeProbab = 0.01;
				aiRateOfFire = 10;
				aiRateOfFireDistance = 900;
			};
		};

};

From this extract, it appears, based on the class AmmoCoef, that the damage for this particular suppressor is 0.8 of the non-suppressed bullet's damage, the flash is reduced to .8 normal, bang to .6 normal, and the velocity (typicalSpeed variable) is reduced to 0.6 of the normal value. This code is for the machine gun suppressor, but the other suppressors show similar values, all with hit reduced to .7, and speed to .6 of their normal values.

In my interpretation, this issue is still not fixed, either on the damage or velocity front.

As a side note, it appears that fire rate is also affected by the suppressors. I don't know what effect, if any, a suppressor has on a weapon's fire rate in real life. Anyone following this thread know and care to share?

I never said that subsonic was how the suppressors work in real life. I said that's how they are in game right now. Because it's like BI planned to add subsonic rounds and had things the way they are as a placeholder.

Suppressor increases rate of fire. Depending on a weapon in question, the effect is more or less pronounced.

From this extract, it appears, based on the class AmmoCoef, that the damage for this particular suppressor is 0.8 of the non-suppressed bullet's damage, the flash is reduced to .8 normal, bang to .6 normal, and the velocity (typicalSpeed variable) is reduced to 0.6 of the normal value. This code is for the machine gun suppressor, but the other suppressors show similar values, all with hit reduced to .7, and speed to .6 of their normal values.

In my interpretation, this issue is still not fixed, either on the damage or velocity front. <<<

Wow. This basically means that damage is actually scaled even more, because the velocity is also reduced (my guess: 0.8^2 (0.64) of original, relation seems to be linear).
Wow.

Definitely needs a fix.

^Correct

It would be like this, say 6.5mm bullet has hit = 10, initSpeed = 795, typicalSpeed = 820;

Then modified by 0.8 = 8

8^2=64

64*((0.6*795)/(0.6*820))=62.05

Compared inherent damage, 62.05/(10^2) = 62% of original damage.

It doesn't even make sense, 0.6*850 = 510 m/s, well above subsonic levels, would definitely produce a sonic crack.

As well, why is the bullet doing 62-64%? It's the same bullet, all other bullets appear to lose hit damage linear to velocity, so 60% velocity should simply be 60% damage, if you fire a 6.5mm bullet and it's speed is 510 m/s downrange it should be doing 60% damage, but fire the exact same bullet from a suppressor at 510 m/s and it does 2-4% more? Why?

Just going to mention once again: 174 votes FOR, zero votes against...

This should be fixed in DEV EXE rev. 114155
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?149636-Development-Branch-Changelog&p=2597816&viewfull=1#post2597816

Tweaked: Effects of suppressors on bullets

Marking fixed, please verify.

I'm not sure it's time to close this. I just checked the files, and the entries now all look about like this:

			class MagazineCoef
			{
				initSpeed = 1;
			};
			class AmmoCoef
			{
				hit = 1;
				visibleFire = 0.8;
				audibleFire = 0.6;
				visibleFireTime = 1.0;
				audibleFireTime = 1.0;
				cost = 1;
				typicalSpeed = 1.2;
				airFriction = 1.2;
			};

So the Hit and initSpeed coefficients are set to 1, but the typical speed has been increased by 20% above base, as has the airFriction.

I don't know the details of how these values interact, but if typicalSpeed = 1.2 means that a silenced round gets a 20% boost to velocity, then I think that's pretty unrealistic. 1.02 seems like a better value for this, if I'm understanding it's use correctly. And as far as the airFriction.... I don't know how that one is used. If it were a frictional coefficient as in a normal physical simulation though, it would be dependent only on bullet geometry, maybe rotation speed. I don't think any ballistics simulation appropriate to real time use would need to change the coefficient of friction with speed. BUT I'm not sure.

Could we perhaps get an informative note of explanation from the devs about these variables, please?

Also, if someone can test in-game to verify the state of the problem, that would be great too.

Tested with DEV ver and it's fixed,GJ

Mass-close of resolved tickets not updated in last two weeks.