Updated (Info Added)

Thank you for the report!

Could you please try reducing the AI skill and see if that helps? AI skill affects detection capabilities of the AI units. I'd recommend using 0.5 as the default value and I'd avoid using extreme values (0 or 1 or close to it).

Please try and let us know what you think!

IRL you should be able to recognize a suppressed shot, even with a very strong noise reduction, about as far as 500m in an environment with about 42dB ambient noise.

The any AI skill(inclusively 100%) not should affect on detection the enemy soldiers, with a silencer, at a great distance (my video example is clear).
In any case it is a bug! Because human are not able to hear/see the sound of shooting with a silencer, at a great distance (70-100 m)

I think that the status of "need more info" is not honored!
What other information is needed? You have a video example.

AI skill does influence the detection. The range of the AI skill is designed to provide enough maneuvering space to the content creators - it spans from completely dumb to super-human behavior.

Sound pressure of a suppressed shot can be about 110-130dB, which is still quite a loud sound. On the contrary - the game is more forgiving in this regard. AI skilled 0.5 (skill value reflecting an average soldier) won't hear you as far as it would IRL.

However we deliberately decided not to follow the Hollywood style stealthy depiction of the suppressors.

Please try the behavior with the default AI skill and let us know if you think the behavior is still way off.

Thank you

Thank you for the courteous and informative reply.
Why BIS use such a formula - "it spans from completely dumb to super-human behavior"?
I think that's wrong, because super soldiers not exist on our planet.
If you are doing 100% AI skill, then please use a real human's ability.
The distance on my video example, very large, in order to immediately(2-3 sec) detect enemy.

PS: I can't solve this problem of reducing the level of AI skill.
I always like to play against AI with 100% skill.
Please make 100% skills of AI realistic.

@oukej

"Could you please try reducing the AI skill and see if that helps? AI skill affects detection capabilities of the AI units. I'd recommend using 0.5 as the default value and I'd avoid using extreme values (0 or 1 or close to it).

Please try and let us know what you think!"

I have such test:

1. In the Stratis map a enemy squad of infantry (default skill) at a distance of 360 metres has been deployed.
2. I Set the AI skill in the game in 0.5.
3. I Start shooting from "Rahim" with a sound supressor and was instantly detected!

You think this is realistic or normal?
If the opponent is able to detect the player at a distance of 360 metres! then what in the game need a silencer?

I think even at the distance > 150 meters, the AI should not find shots with a silencer.

ASR_AI3 - thats the only way or Group Link 5 - 2 best ai mods ever made and still updated. I think nobody care that Ai killed you with one shot, but i hate it - its impossible -you were phroned and AI was standing (weapon swaying, fatigue) and he aim you and kille in 1 second with one shot - just ridiculus - i dont know how people can play with those super robots, or as oukej writed " super-human" - it is not simulator then - is this game title ALIEN VS PREDATOR, OR PREDATOR? opfor uniforms reminds me predators, their skills too!

vlad, thank you for your support.
moderators, please change the status of this ticket.
This is not should have a status "need more info"

And nothing was changed changed...WAKE UP PEOPLE! Start fixing issues with "old" stuff instead of creating new ones

Sufficient information was provided, however, for BIS it is not sufficient.
This issue, Was reported in nowember, and still has the status -"need more info". BIS, What information do you need also?

IN ARMA3 IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY A STEALTH MISSION! THE ENEMY ALWAYS HEARS THE WEAPON WITH SOUND SUPPRESSOR AND IMMEDIATELY FINDS THE PLAYER, EVEN AT NIGHT!!!

OK, If required more information, then please see my repro mission!
Hide you in the bushes and shoot at the enemy, which located is at the bottom on the Stratis airport.
Use "Medium" skills of AI-settings in the game. Even at this level the AI for a few seconds will discover you! In real life no one will be able to find you at this distance in just a few seconds! This is nonsense!

I provided video + repro mission. What kind of information you want to see!?
Rather than, correcting the error, you ignore this problem

Confirmed - try to play mission from presentation whre you must steal a car. AI know my position even before i started firing - they cant seen me - i was hidden behind rock on lover heigh than AI - i saw patrol guy but he didnt seen me - i was waiting hidden in place and alarm started to play, and ai was starting surrounding me - it must be fixed, game is unplayable now - sound positioning/stutter/AI - and fix goddam ai reversing with tanks - they still have problems with that

Vlad, in my repro mission, the distance to the enemy about 400 meters!
And player hidden in the bushes! The AI in just a few seconds it finds the player position. In real life, even at a distance of 100-150 meters, no one man from Earth-planet, will not be able do this!

Its almost same, but on diferent distances..... strange - or maybe not. Does anybody feel that CSAT is aliens ? - they look like aliens, act like aliens, use alien weapons, now they detect us with alien accuracy. This is it! I dicover Bohemia Interactive project! They named it simulator, indeed its a simulator of fighting with aliens, What Me or You can know about it? Did we meet aliens? NO! Bohemia meet them for sure! (joke off course - there is nothing left to do than joking)

I tested this issue and i agree with guys.

oukej: If you change the enemy in the sample mission to recon units, then you can observe the AI side. Test the difference where You can hear the weapon sounds and where the AI detect your position based on shooting.

I didn't noticed the weapon sound until I moved closer than 150-200. The AI has a double or triple the distance compared to this. Beyond 200 m all I hear is sonic crack of the bullet. Snap, snap, snap, snap without any directional information.

Sonic crack itself should not provide any information about the player location. The weapon sound delay and direction should or if the bullet has tracer should, but without these the sonic crack it self is just a crack.

I hope this is enough information to do something with this issue. :)

I think it must be so. It is not a requirement for BIS, this is just my reasoning:

1. The minimum distance for instant detection of a fighter with a sound supressor (primary weapon) should be not more than 85 -100 m. If a shooter with a sound supressor (primary weapon) will be located closer than this distance, only then it can be detected quickly. At night or in the fog/smoke this distance should be even less.

2. The terrain, weather, time of day, the presence of a smoke cover or visual cover, should have affect the probability of detection. So for example in the woods, in the fog, at night or in smoke detection probability AI should decrease significantly.

3. A specific weapon, that uses soldiers also should affect the probability of detection. So for example a machine gunner with a sound supressor, should always have a greater chance of being detected (because of the high rate of fire) than a rifle , that fires single shots. Thus the minimum detection for machine gun, can be increased with 85-100 by approximately 120-150 meters. At that time, if a shooter uses a pistol with a sound supressor, should not be detected up immediately, even at close range! (within 20-30 m)

4. If a player uses a primary weapon with sound supressor and is located on free place map (without any visual shelters) and distance to enemy within 150-200 m, then this marksmen must be detected within not earlier than approximately 10-20 seconds , even if the enemy AI has 100% skill. The game should not be super-human abilities!

5. Presence of visual hiding place, near to the marksmen, should have an impact on detection. Thus, if a player uses a sound supressor and uses at one time visual shelter (e.g. bushes) and up to enemy within 150-200 m, then the detection of such a player must be complicated. This shooter should be detected not earlier, than within a approximately 30-70 seconds.

And just in case the shooter will not change self position!

6. The Presence of a ghillie suit(expecially at large distances more > 200-250 m) should also have an impact on detection. If the player uses the sound supressor and at the same time uses a ghillie suit and distance to enemy > 200 m, then the AI-detection of such a player must be complicated. This marksmen, should be detected within not less than within 60-120 seconds. And only if he doesn't change fire position!

7. Increase the distance, should be harder to detect. So for example, if a marksmen with a sound supressor, shoots from distance > 350-400, then this fighter, should not be quickly detected. This marksmen should have the all chances to be found no earlier than 5-10 minutes!

Please, preferably keep the discussions off the bug reports - it clutters the information about the bug.

If there's no update on the issue it doesn't mean it's been ignored - it's simply means a developer hasn't had a time to (re)check the issue.
Emotions, imperatives, shouting (http://www.albion.com/netiquette/ (!)), excessive information and speculations don't make dealing with the issue any faster - on the contrary - an issue with too much clutter is less likely to be dealt with. Keep it short, objective and to the point. Thank you guys!

"excessive information and speculations don't make dealing with the issue any faster"

oukej, you were awarded the status of my issue - "need more info". Then, I tried to provide more information! And now you report that, I gave too much excessive information. My friend, this is nonsense.

What's stopping you change the status of this issue? So at least we'll know, that this problem is seen by the developers! Show it, and we can wait/

Yeah, same status since year is gently sayed "strange"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxY_GLcmilU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3VITZ6-CcY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddSqQjAM6xs

We need subsonic ammo ! :D

R34P3R, we don't need new ammunition, we need proper reaction of the AI!

This is not a discussion. Use forums instead.

But I'll go through the points you said the devs "must do"

*1 - max detection 85-100m - as it is now, e.g. firing the suppressed Rahim you use in your repro mission alerts the AI only as close as about 50m away. However keep in mind the note in http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=21860#c86344 and also take into account that there are only few subsonic ammunitions in the vanilla game and the sonic cracks are damn loud and they should alert the enemy easily.

*2 - variables of detection - all what you mentioned is taken into account for AI's visual detection. Suppressors also reduce the visual signature of firing.

*3 - amount of bullets or weapon type - already taken into account.

*4,5,6 & 7 - this is not how it works. If the AI hears the bullet impact or bullet passing by it doesn't get much information about where it came from. If the AI hears also the weapon fire it will get an estimate about general direction of a threat. The AI then turns into that direction and scan for threats. If it encounters an unknown unit it may recognize it as an enemy faster than if it wasn't alerted by an audible fire, bullet impacts or fly-by's previously.
In other words, the audible events don't tell the AI much - they can alert the AI (making it more focused and better at detecting enemies) and give it some basic direction estimate. The rest of it however depends on visual detection.

You can see it in your repro mission as well. Firing the suppressed Rahim in the air alerts the AI only if you're very close to it. Hitting the ground near the enemy AI or letting the bullet pass close to it alerts the AI but doesn't reveal you or your exact position.
To verify that I recommend using one of these scripting commands:
https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/targetKnowledge
https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/getHideFrom

Being rude wont help you. Look how many Devs Arma 3 has and look hiw much work they have to do. Some thing are not at high priority. Its a fact and i can understand it. They acknowledged your ticket so its at the devs now. Be patient and maybe bump the ticket 1x in a month.

oukej: it's possible that this issue related to the new AI fix?

Tweaked: AI versus clutter visibility (Altis & Stratis)
Tweaked: AI versus tree trunk visibility (Altis & Stratis)

I will test this issue again with the current dev branch. Maybe it's changed something.

it's possible that this issue related to the new AI fix?

Probably not. The bush on the video worked correctly even before and there's not much more I can tell from it (where was the other AI that killed the player? what was the positioning?)

oukej, you want to say that everything works realistic!? This is ridiculous.

I play ARMA3 for almost 2 years and I've NEVER seen the AI behave realistically. Every time the AI determines the position of the any shooter with the sound suppressor in a few seconds!

See my repro mission. In real life, at a distance of 400 meters a sniper even without sound suppressor, could not be detected so quickly! This is not possible! Yes, human can hear a sonic-crack, and become alert, but the man is NOT ABLE to determine the position of the marksmen for a few seconds!!!
In the game we see that the AI in just a few seconds determines the position of the shooter! This is not human super-ability

"all what you mentioned is taken into account for AI's visual detection. Suppressors also reduce the visual signature of firing."

My friend this is nonsense! I have specially created bad weather in my repro mission. I added fog and rain and the enemy found me for 5-6 seconds! Oh my goodness, this is super nonsense!
BIS, See my second repro-mission and PLEASE make the behavior of the AI in the game is adequate!
I'm telling you again about "Operation Flashpoint", where if you used a weapon with Sound Suppressor, then the enemy AI were not able to immediately detect player! They ran, shouted, looking around. It was adequate created by BIS reaction and it was very realistic.
Why do we not see this in ArmA3 ?

In the repro mission

• following the repro steps if I just "fire" the Rahim noone detects me
• If I fire the Rahim at the units down range (miss or hit them), I only alert them, they get some estimate about an enemy (me) but soon they return to AWARE state.
• If I keep firing at them then they are soon or later able to pinpoint my location. Usually they must be looking in my direction when I fire.

There are 3 units down there that have optics and have much easier time spotting me - Squad Leader, Team leader and Marksman. (you can check it by removing those from the squad).

But it isn't that much about the audibility of suppressed fire. Your note about bad weather/fog also suggests that it's more about too good/fast visual detection.

(You can also try using https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/switchCamera command to switch into the AI's point of view and see what it sees. It helps objectively judging if it's wrong or not.)

I'm not saying there's nothing wrong. But we need to narrow it down to one situation - one AI, one type of optics, one attacker/target positioning. Expressing personal notions, speculating and prematurely elaborating on ideas how it should work draws us away from getting to the core of the issue.

Oukej, thanks for the your answers. I don't want to develop a long discussion, but it seems to me you are not all right.

"following the repro steps if I just "fire" the Rahim noone detects me"

I don't understand what is - "just fire". probably this is not relevant to the problem. I mean shooting at the enemy

"If I fire the Rahim at the units down range (miss or hit them), I only alert them, they get some estimate about an enemy (me)"

The player hidden in the bushes, you never mention this detail! If the enemy is hiding in the bushes at a distance of 400 meters, then it is impossible to detect within 5-6 seconds! Especially in bad weather!!! Such detection should require more time, even if the AI-squad has optical devices.

"If I keep firing at them then they are soon or later able to pinpoint my location. Usually they must be looking in my direction when I fire."

Yes, Yes, Yes! But not for 5-6-8 seconds of time! Give more time for detection! Especially in bad weather or at night!

"There are 3 units down there that have optics and have much easier time spotting me - Squad Leader, Team leader and Marksman. (you can check it by removing those from the squad)"

I understand that. These units has are optical devices. However, the optical devices are not capable of detecting the enemy faster(!within 5-8 second) especially if the enemy is hiding in the bushes, in bad weather( fog, rain)

"But it isn't that much about the audibility of suppressed fire. Your note about bad weather/fog also suggests that it's more about too good/fast visual detection."

We can change the name of the ticket, but I am not sure that the problem will be solved faster.

oukej, try to use a pistol with a suppressor in my repro mission. This weapon with a sound suppressor should have the least detection-effect in the game, but the enemy AI also will easily and quickly find you! Required the same time of detection. Also try to use Kir, with subsonic ammunition. It also does not give any result.
This suggests that the detection of the AI in the A3, not consider the current and specific weapon (my third point)

Did you tried to use the ASP KIR 1? there should be no detection on 300 to 400m (you just wont hit anything XD). Because this is the only weapon witout a supersonic crack that is essentially for finding the shooter.

BTW out of Topic i need approx. 10 to 30 sec to find a shooter in MP depends on weapon silencer and distance. Thats not 60 to 120 sec.

"Because this is the only weapon witout a supersonic crack"
Yes, I mean the same! Weapons without subsonic cracks, should be harder to detect. However, in the game, this is not. Try my repro mission with Kir weapon/

"BTW out of Topic i need approx. 10 to 30 sec to find a shooter in MP depends on weapon silencer and distance. Thats not 60 to 120 sec"

I said, the sniper on the one fire-position can be detected no sooner than 60-120 seconds only, if this sniper:

1. uses GHILLIE SUIT in the forest or between trees.
2. uses sound supressor.
3. attacks from a distance more than 200 meters.

Anyway, these figures have a large interval. Between 60 and 120 would be to add the random factor

I think AI mode (safe, aware, combat) should also affect this. While safe AI are not expecting contact and contact would surprise them making reaction time longer. Where as combat - fired on before - would be more alert and ready to find a target quicker. Aware should be somewhere in the middle.

tomahawx05, agree with you, but always, if the AI-unit notices a bullet-hit next to him or if he sees a dead ally in his squad, then the behavior of such AI-soldier should always be "combat", Thus I say only about one mode - "Combat"

I need to add my 2 cents as an ex rifleman faced in combat with marksman 14 times.

• If you dont expect enemy contact (safe mode in game) , enemy will suprise you, and before you will get your mind focused on search, lot of dead bodies will lie nex to you, and marksman will even escape (15-30 second for proper "scaning the horizon")*.
• If you enetring the enemy zone, but there is no enemy nearby (but you are prepared for some contact - AWARE) and marksman start shoot to you, it will gain about 20 seconds to find the shooter, and chances to kill him is minimal *.
• If you are strictly prepared for marksman attack (you know he is somewhere and got an eye on you - COMBAT)it will take minimally - i repeat minimally 10 seconds for trained and very good focused soldier (or psyho, who dont feel scare, and adrenaline bumbing)*, so in game i would set it to 10 seconds LAST 3 grades of the AI, rest should have 15-20.

• Marksman is at ~ 300 - 500 Meters with good camouflage.

Also there is one thing, that can make gameplay easier, and more realistic. Its gunshots sound. AI shooting 50-300 meters from you should be hearable more louder. Now i can hear soniccracks, but cant hear the shooter, so it coming to strange situation, where ai enemy is right next to me and firing whole mag into me, and i still dont know where he is - i hear only conic cracks, so i'm looking for him far away instead right next to myself - i should hear his weapon LOUD as well. This should be immidetly tweaked. Ai weapons cannot be heard almost at all. Til bigger range, till louder gunshots, that not right.

As a developer i know that if you can't summarize the issue into very specify description, it's almost impossible to fix/change it. As oukej said, you should summarize it into very specify scenario.

oukej: Has the previous combat mod any effect to the new combat mode when it change? I mean. Is there any difference in changing from SAFE MODE to COMBAT or AWARE to COMBAT? Because there should.

I think what Fighting Power(0097680) said can be a solution. If you in SAFE MODE and you hear shooting, the last thing will be to find attacker.

This issue had before assigned status, but now it again only asknowleged. Unfortunately there is only a regress...