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The cockpit of the helicopter is unreadable using night-vision goggles.
Assigned, LowPublic

Description

The cockpit of the helicopter is unreadable using night-vision goggles.
Too bright.
The reading of the instrumentation during flight it is difficult / impossible. {F18690} {F18691} {F18692}

Details

Legacy ID
2066681653
Severity
Tweak
Resolution
Open
Reproducibility
Always
Category
Visual-Vehicles
Steps To Reproduce

-Open editor
-place any type of helicopter
-set night
-move on chopper
-turn on engine
-use night vision
-Observe cockpit

Additional Information

Thanks guys for the work you are doing.

Event Timeline

SnIpErIT edited Steps To Reproduce. (Show Details)Apr 5 2013, 4:52 PM
SnIpErIT edited Additional Information. (Show Details)
SnIpErIT set Category to Visual-Vehicles.
SnIpErIT set Reproducibility to Always.
SnIpErIT set Severity to Tweak.
SnIpErIT set Resolution to Open.
SnIpErIT set Legacy ID to 2066681653.May 7 2016, 1:27 PM
47Pilot added a subscriber: 47Pilot.May 7 2016, 1:27 PM

Your picture is misleading. In real life you can't read your cockpit instruments either wearing your NVG's. You look past your NVG's to read your instruments, not through your NVG's.
I have to admit the instrument lighting should be more dimmed at night.

I assure you that, in real life, the instrument panels are readable using NVG;).

Yeah, but pilots don't read instrument panels using NVG's. They look past their NVG's.

I guess I should just explain here, because people are full of shit and they think they know anything about how it works in real life.......

NVG's don't have autofocus. Pilots focus their goggles to infinity, so they can look outside and see sharply.

This means the instrument panel is UNREADABLE. It's too unsharp to distinguish numbers and markings.

This is why pilots look underneath their goggles to read their instruments.

So this report is not legit. Downvote please.

I possess a pvs 15, pvs 14 and a mum.
what you say about the focus is true, but the modern military instrumentation is readable by a military NVG.
There are also flip-up to adjust the focus at close range.

I will not write more on the issue.

For solving the problem in-game, I suggest a customizable HUD data feed for NVG flight and if you decide to go night unaided (yeah right) then turn up the instrument lights to your heart's content. I think a mechanic where you have players try to look under their tubes would drive them insane, even though it's technically correct. And yeah, there needs to be an NV light setting for the cockpit.

Can't comment on PVS systems; never heard of them for pilots and certainly haven't used them. They may be missing the minus-blue coating aviator versions have and that would definitely make an impact on instrument readability.

Sniper, that is great you have a pvs. Good for you. It's totally irrelevant to this issue though. Aviators use anvis goggles. What I say is correct, what you say is not. I guess our goal here is to give the developers tips on how to make arma as authentic as it gets so I'm glad you won't post on this issue anymore because you don't know what you are talking about.
I agree with dustoff. A HUD would work and is realistic.

IRL not all vehicles have NVG compatible cockpits.
A10C has one, since instead of "normal" cockpit lights you have NVG compatible lights. As far as i know, Littlebirds don't have those, not sure about KA60

Its mandatory by FAA: http://nvgsafety.com/NVG_Lighting/Cockpit/

Edit: After testing, in my config it´s ok (2013-04-09_00007.jpg). Maybe needed better contrast in the gauges

Bohemia added a subscriber: Bohemia.May 7 2016, 1:27 PM

I'm afraid we'll likely just have to learn to deal with it, cockpit gauges are back to being lit with the latest dev build but they still blind NVG's.

Oh and it's actually worse now, the gauges turn pure white.

JNC added a subscriber: JNC.May 7 2016, 1:27 PM
JNC added a comment.May 24 2013, 1:19 AM

Most acft also have day / night switch for instrument lightings... (dim / bright) etc

Can the lights be turned off to allow NVG to work then??

JNC added a comment.May 24 2013, 3:44 AM

Not that I know of

Is this still assigned or is that out of date? I know it may seem silly but this feature is actually really important to those that want to fly aircraft at night that aren't TI capable. It also effects ground vehicles that use lights not bound to the L key.

I noticed that the emissive material in vehicle cockpits in the daylight fade when under direct light so I'm hopeful that there might be something that can be done.

Gugla added a comment.Aug 5 2013, 3:52 PM

Hi, a look at this pictures. I agree that is needs change, display in interiors aircraft must stay readable. I find picture with power light on turn on displays: http://lh4.ggpht.com/-vps-o26CYX8/R-QOztRNi8I/AAAAAAABUnU/cHRGpHjm3eY/080319-F-7338M-115%252520NVG%252520View.jpg but I don't now, what aperture was used.

Now is not time for change it, but I will try it change nerly time. Thanks

Glad to see a developer comment, here is another image
For apterture of digital displays, this one might be a good bet with the top row of data displays.
http://spsaviation.net/images/C130J-Cockpit_l.jpg
http://www.olinet.com//content/productImage/1218728279Cockpit_A.jpg

Generally speaking grey also becomes green, for example the Black foot PIP display would be greenscaled to NVG's but right now it washes out to white.

It's more or less FAA rules that NVG's and cockpit lighting function together and these are from a few manufacturers that work on it specifically.

http://www.helicoptersmagazine.com/images/stories/2010/March-April/roundtable3.jpg

http://rebtechnvg.com/REBTech2009/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Euro350B3.jpg for example of a modern cockpit in day and night

http://www.aerodynamix.com/index.php/engineering-technology/cockpit-lighting-tradeoffs

Understandable that this issue is not priority right now, I and many others are just glad to see that it has taken notice..I will be keeping an eye out for this one, thank you for your time :). I will be keeping a close eye on this one.

Ofcourse it's nice to see developers reading and replying here, but then they should be reading and doing the RIGHT thing...

I say again: In reality, when you're in the cockpit and you have your NVG's on, you CAN NOT, _CAN NOT_ read your instruments. The lighting of the instruments will often be too bright for the goggles, but more importantly, the goggles are focused for infinity, so the instruments would be severely out of focus.
In reality, the pilot looks down below of his or her goggles to look at the instruments with eyeball mk1.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/hai-convention-news/2013-03-07/aviation-specialties-completes-nvis-install-era-as350b2

Says here that the NVIS setup should render the instruments "invisible" to the NVG's. http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA517298

This also effect digital instruments and makes anything but black bracketted (IE commanche and kajiman) difficult to read (and forget about the PIP)

Whereas IRL digital avionics have an array of buttons and knobs to allow adjustment of brightness, contrast and all that jazz.

I say again: In reality, when you're in the cockpit and you have your NVG's on, you CAN NOT, _CAN NOT_ read your instruments. The lighting of the instruments will often be too bright for the goggles

Nope, you're wrong. In Russian aircraft, I know it for sure, the instrument backlight is designed specifically to not interfere (= be readable) with NVGs. I highly doubt western equivalents will be inferior in this sense.
Civilian aircraft instruments may not possess this quality, but modern military - certainly do.

, but more importantly, the goggles are focused for infinity, so the instruments would be severely out of focus.

1 meter versus infinity focus difference is just one diopter. It's not "severely out of focus" by any means - I wear contact lenses specifically undercorrected by one diopter, and it doesn't cause any issues for e.g. reading car instrument panel.

Of course, the instruments are closer than 1 meter - but, well, that still will be enough to at least quickly scan the gauges position (which is what analog instruments are for)

In reality, the pilot looks down below of his or her goggles to look at the instruments with eyeball mk1.

Problem is, it's not possible in the game. Hence - why not fixing it for the benefit of everyone?

Dude... I'm an active military CH47 pilot, I fly with NVG's regularly... How many times have you flown with NVG's? Stop being so stubborn.

designed specifically not to interfere DOES NOT EQUAL readable with NVG's. Even a tiny white LED in the cockpit is VERY annoying and disturbing when you're looking outside of the cockpit with your goggles. That's why instruments have NVG compatible lighting. You could probably read it with your goggles if you mess with your focus (but probably only old analogue instruments, but not a single pilot would do that because it would be ridiculous and very dangerous. Also, most modern MFD's with NVG filters are unreadable with NVG's. You simply don't use NVG's for it. And it's also not just a short 1 diopter twist, you have to twist almost 360 degrees, what I reckon. And guess what, that's often not even possible if you're holding the flight controls or using an optical display assembly to project a HUD onto on of your eyes.

Really, do you REALLY think pilots would adjust their focus while flying? Really? Let go of the controls to turn on their focus rings until they can read their instrument, then turn on the focus ring again to look outside again? Seriously, you have no idea how big the bullshit is you're spreading.

If you want to see a pretty good simulation of NVG's, play DCS world, but please, stop spreading lies.

Sure, many of us would love what DCS has does with its NVG's, especially in style of this mod. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXG-MeeEpUo

But it's not like we can "see under" them, as opposed to http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=76317&d=1358870201

If it was like that then I'd have no issues with glare, as it stands you have to remove the NVG's, glance, put them back on and then wait for the focus to come back, not bad at first but it would become irritating in constant not to mention in a hot situation its not going to help in any way.

Suppose the focus shouldn't be on the instrument emissive property then but rather the NVG implimentation method itself.

@47Pilot:
Okay, you're right here... I apologize for the tone, have been annoyed by some really ridiculous stuff.
I was not talking about adjusting focus, I was talking about 1 diopter being bad but not bad enough to not read at least gauge-based instruments (vspeed, velocity, fuel, engine power - all the list of the backup ones). But, well, won't argue with you on that - you probably know better.

NodUnit, that mod makes it more unrealistic than it is in the original DCS. Pilots fly with two NVG tubes, not one. And you adjust them on your helmet in such a way that you have enough room to look underneath 'm at your instruments, with eyeball mk1.

Every eye gets it's own NVG tube, they're focused to infinity, NVG's don't have autofocus. All they have is protection against bright light sources and automatic brightness control.
There's no magnification in aviation NVG's, but ofcourse the image is just a little bit distorted compared to the eyeballs mk1. Depending on how far you put the NVG's from your eyes (2cm is recommended), you have around 40 degrees FOV through your NVG's.
The way I always set them up: As close to my eyes as possible, and as high up as possible so that the the goggles cover the area outside of my cockpit, and by just glancing down below the goggles I just barely see the top edge of the cockpit panel. That's what works best. Still sometimes need to tilt my head up to see everything below with eyeball mk1 though.

So a view more like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsB-m98oljc Don't forget, we don't have peripheral vision in games, certain modifications to some things have to be taken into account to try and fake that.

Not to mention some people have to press a key to look up, it would be that or repeatedly removing the NVG's again and again and again to see.

Yeah NodUnit, that really approaches reality best if you ask me. DCS did a good job.

It's 2035, perhaps NVGs got better? It's an excuse but also the easiest solution.

With both helicopters and jets, cannot see the HUD with nightvision on.

Also now with the latest developer version, cannot see the HUD at all even without nightvision turned on.