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Easy to implement but major impact improvement for the animations
Reviewed, NormalPublic

Description

We all know the animation system is not done yet.
Still - now is the time to point out simple solutions.

[B]Present state:[/B]
(Standard controls)
At the moment - when we turn left and right - our whole upper body moves with the aimpoint and (while standing, crouching, prone - BUT NOT WHILE IN EITHER STANCES BETWEEN THEM -> http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=2980) our legs will move to turn us left and right.
Like it is now: http://youtu.be/OtXUO8QB8XM -First part

This leg movement is an improvement to Arma2 where your legs didnt move.
But it can be further improved! AND THIS IS EVEN ALLREADY INTEGRATED INTO THE GAME!

[B]Expected behavior[/B]

If you aim your weapon left or right - your torso should move first - and then after a certain degree - your feet should fallow.

Video: http://youtu.be/OtXUO8QB8XM -second part.

Now by watching the video you see why this is allready IN THE GAME.

All it needs is a way to make this the standard animation sheme FROM OUTSIDE.

But on the other hand - there should not be an aiming deadzone while in first person view. In first person view you should still have the standard movement where your weapon moves with the whole screen.

Best regards!

Details

Legacy ID
1730350138
Severity
Tweak
Resolution
Open
Reproducibility
Always
Category
Anims
Additional Information

Event Timeline

NordKindchen edited Additional Information. (Show Details)
NordKindchen set Category to Anims.
NordKindchen set Reproducibility to Always.
NordKindchen set Severity to Tweak.
NordKindchen set Resolution to Open.
NordKindchen set Legacy ID to 1730350138.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM

Although I did upvote this issue, I must point out that if you aim down your scope (tap Right Click by default) and then hold Alt, you can turn your character to some degree without turning his legs. It is not what you are looking for per se, but definitely fairly close.

KDN added a subscriber: KDN.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM
KDN added a comment.Mar 18 2013, 12:58 PM

How about sliding the Aimzone all the way to the right. That makes my character move at the waist first before side stepping. Is this what you mean Nordkindchen?

Jeah basically I want the soldiers to move their torso before moving their feet. Its what you would do in real life.

At the moment the soldiers move their feet with every look left and right they make. Thats just not very natural.

By the example of the "aiming deadzone" I wanted to show that this is theoretically is already integrated.

It just needs to be cut off the "aiming deadzone" realation. I dont want to use deadzones so my soldiers moves naturally.

Best regards!

Helari added a subscriber: Helari.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM

Aiming deadzone is kind of terrible, but the effect could be used only visually while turning normally to make turning around in place seem more natural to other players and in 3rd person.

Thats exactly what I wanted to express;)

I just want to underline again: What I want is NOT MAKING THE AMING DEADZONE STANDARD.

Instead I only want the body behavior of that system from the outside - to get rid of the robotic behavior we currently have.

The first person aiming should stay perfectly as it is. Only the outside look should change.

I dont know, I prefer adjusting the deadzone, it adds that effect for me, and well, thats really what the deadzone is for, otherwise they would have to cut out the deadzone feature.

Personally i prefer the deadzone because especially when you use post processing effects and have motion blur, it really toys with focussing when swaying your weapon, however with deadzone, your general direction you are facing remains constant, and just the weapon moves around. This eliminates the motion blur for when focussing on to shot targets straight ahead, and at the same time, it hardly affects your FPS if you arent achieving great FPS above 40FPS consistently, so it makes those crucial shots way more smooth.

Personally I would say just learn to use the deadzone, thats what it is there for.

On that note, the deadzone on ARMA 3 is quite a bit weird compared to ARMA2. Will put in a ticket for devs to take a look at that.

Well - the deadzones are not there so your animations look smother. Its a control option that people prefer or dont.

And the majority seems to not like it=/

But that shouldnt mean that this is the only way to improve the animations.

As I said - the aiming deadzone should be kept for those who want it - but the animatinos still should be adapted.

jejn added a comment.Mar 22 2013, 5:15 PM

If i get this right, you just want the animation of the dead-zone to show whenever or not the player has one.
So my first person feeling would stay the same (dead-zone or not) but someone looking at me wouldn't be able to tell.

Jepp - right. Its kind of hard to explain^^

I only want that the soldiers first turn their body a few inch and then move their feet - without any change in the first person view.

The aiming deadzone example is only to show off that this system is allready integrated - but sadly restricted to the aiming deadzone users - which is really unnecessary.

Greetings

i really hope bis does not disregard issues with low vote counts. sure majority of people will just go pew pew and look at normal maps, shaders, character models, etc. but a minority will also be seeing the details, and that's where true appreciation for the animation and art work comes in. i hope you don't neglect those of us for whom the lack of leg movement is like acid in the eyes.

I think this is a valid post. A3 is foremost an infantry combat simulator and in my opinion having these magic turning on bearings animations are taking away the immersion.

This is not easy to implement. You can either force aiming deadzone by default or rework animation system entirely.

Sry but I think that is not really true.

All you need to do is:

"activate aiming deadzone by default" - and then bind the headmovement of the soldier in first person to the guns aiming point.

Of course that would need the negative acceleration to be gone for the aiming deadzone - but thats a bug either way.

This way all you needed to do would be to lock the headmovement to the gunmovement in first person.

If you wanted to activate the aiming deadzone again - just unbind the headmovement and the gun movement again. Et voila.

Could you explain me why this would need a reworking of the animation system?

I am willing to learn.

Best regards!

Ps I tried if this is basically posible with Track Ir. I got the feeling it is.

Greetings

I dont think you understood my message. Its not that easy because:

(option1) If we force aiming deadzone by default, it might be very confusing for newcomers from other games (who the series tries to open for) who did not experience anything like it before. Might lead to a lot of frustration.
(option2) If we wish to make sure the crosshair stays in the center all the time, we would essentialy go for Battlefield system (BF3 for instance) - where the animation itself has no effect on the way the crosshair behaves. This is however pretty much impossible at this stage within the engine.

Please dont get me wrong. I would like ALL things, especially this, but this doesnt sound doable at this point.

prasek added a subscriber: prasek.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM
prasek added a comment.Apr 9 2013, 1:40 PM

I hope that implementing that won't screw the fluid control of the character, as it is now.

No worrys mate^^
Everythings all right!

To be honest I am really glad we can have this conversation!

But I think we are misunderstanding each other. I apologize if my explainations arent that well written since I find my suggestions kind of hard to vocalize -even in my own language (which obviously isnt english)

I am all with you if you say you want to keep the aiming point always in the middle of the screen so that new comers can feel comfortable. Thats exactly what I want too.

On the other hand I dont want a system where the crosshair stays in the middle of the screen <b>all the time</b> either. Just as you suggested.
Freelook is a must in a game like arma.

I am trying to visualize my thoughts a bit more.
I hope that this will help us understand each other^^

Ill add another post as soon as I am ready with it.

Oh - and if at the end this isnt possible to implement, I could still live with it;) I just want to make sure we understand each other.

Best regards and see ya soon;)

So do you suggest something like "delayed" crosshair motion? (vide Worlds of Tanks - please check videos) I am afraid this might hurt the game itself (also requires reworking the system).

Freelooking is still available with default ALT key (i am using SPACE in my personal preset).

Helari added a comment.Apr 9 2013, 6:59 PM

I think he's meaning a purely visual change without effect on actual aiming fluidity.

So it still feels very hard to explain but here are two example pics.

They explain the basics. At least I hope^^

If the explained system works right - there should <b>not be any visual change while inside first peron view!</b>
Only the outside animations would change.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4934308/Arma%203/Feature_better%20animations/Current%20system.jpg

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4934308/Arma%203/Feature_better%20animations/suggested%20change.jpg

Now how do I think could this be implemented?

At the moment the "freelook" movement is basically an "add movement to head" kinf of script.
This could be used for my purpose.
As long as you move your reticle in the "Aiming Deadzone Square" the movement of the mouse will get added to your headmovement.
It would basically mean that you control your "freelook" and "reticle" at the same time while moving the mouse.

With the simple addition of such a command line to the game this system could be basically implemented. (Well I dont know HOW hard it is to add such a "commandline" but it sure cannot be a major workload, can it?)
The only difficulty with this will be that this "add to the headmovement" will have to stop the moment it reaches the "Aiming Deadzone Square" and restart working when the movement is happening in that square again.

If you would like - I would also agree to explain my thought to you via chat or skype! Not that I will force you to do so but I find it very hard to explain and I am quite sure that with the addition of a scriptline to the headmovement this system could be implemented.

Of course - if you can prove me wrong I will accept that. But at the moment I only got the feeling that we have a misunderstanding=)

Best regards!

I just did a <b>proof of concept</b> to show that its possible.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4934308/Arma%203/Feature_better%20animations/animated_Arma_gif.gif
(You need to wait a bit till it loaded)

I enabled aiming deadzone in the game options and aimed at several points along the barricades on this pic. While I was aiming at a point I used "freelook" to center my aim again. Just like my suggested system would do.
I did a screenshot then and added them to a .gif.

This would be possible if you could add the mousemovement to the headmovement via some command files.
No big change in the animation system. At least not that I can see=) I may be wrong though - you are the expert in the end;)

Oh and if its not obvious: To enable the current "Aiming Deadzone" again - simply disable the "movement addition" to the headview.

Greetings and I hope you can now better understand what I am suggesting!

I wish I could speak tchesch at some times^^

Best regards!

Just saw the pics while I was writing to try and express better what you mean, NK !
I think there is still a problem with your approach, however ;) Would you guess what ? Spoiler in 10 minutes while I finish ;)

I think he basically means unlock the torso from the legs, by default, for all animations where the soldier has a gun out.

You can simulate the desired visual result by enabling Aiming Deadzone and looking at the player in 3rd person. However with this enabled in first person the character's 'eyes' no longer track the crosshair, and quite rightly so - But this isn't the part that needs to change.

It's just a best of both worlds kind of deal. Where the standard for character animation would be the torso is unlocked from the legs by default, meaning you'd see (from 3rd person) their torso rotate along with their gun independent from their legs, up to a point, where the legs would then follow - Just like how it currently works with Aiming Deadzone, just without the first person counterpart.

I guess if the way the game is designed it's not possible, then it's not possible.

Probably what's making it hard to believe that it's not doable is that your animation system clearly can facilitate what Nord is suggesting, as it's doing it already, but only when Aiming Deadzone is turned on - And as you said Smookie not all players are comfortable with using it in first person.

Upvoted anyhow.

Hmmm, I think I get what NordKindchen says, or want to get at, or maybe a more doable method than his (or not, that's for Smookie to say :)

I also think I get Smookie's answer. I bet the difficulty to implement is related to the lack of different skeletons for 1st and 3rd person (hence the wish to add one in DayZ standalone). This is why the crosshair position will always be related to the gun direction on the character model. Now, make no mistake :
<ol><li>I will disable separate skeletons in DayZ standalone if I even buy it, as I think having a 1-to-1 relationship between 1st and 3rd person is actually a feature. Actually I won't even buy the game if disabling it is not possible.</li><li>I still believe there is room for improvement. First by solving issue 2980 (http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=2980), leg movement in intermediate stances. Then, the curent issue, that has no impact on aiming deadzone by itself and no need for intermediate skeleton.</li></ol>Now let's dig into the problem by looking at the controls and their effect on both gameplay and animation :

<b>Current behavior</b>
<ol><li>Aim<ul><li>Control : mouse movement</li><li>Gameplay : set crosshair position/movement direction, view vector</li><li>Animation : orient lower body, whole body it is locked so it turns as well</li></ul></li><li>Aiming Deadzone (optional)<ul><li>Control : mouse movement</li><li>Gameplay : set crosshair position up to <b>configured</b> threshold, then 1.</li><li>Animation : orient upper body only up to <b>configured</b> threshold, then 1.</li></ul></li><li>Freelook<ul><li>Control : ALT + mouse movement</li><li>Gameplay : set view vector</li><li>Animation : orient head </li></ul></li></ol><b>Expected behavior</b>
(controls and freelook stays the same)<ol><li>Aim<ul><li>Gameplay : set crosshair position, view vector, movement direction</li><li>Animation : <i>orient upper body and head up to <b>maximum</b> aiming deadzone threshold, then</i> orient lower body with whole body turning </li></ul></li><li>Aiming Deadzone (optional)<ul><li>Gameplay : set crosshair position up to <b>configured</b> threshold, then 1.</li><li>Animation : orient upper body only up to <b>configured</b> threshold, then 1.</li></ul></li></ol>I think that expresses in a codable form what N.K had to say :) Now a small detail : <i>upper body orientation must sets the walking direction</i>, so that :
<ol><li>Move<ul><li>Control : W, A, S, D...</li><li>Gameplay : moves the player relatively to forward movement direction vector</li><li>Animation : if upper body direction differs from leg direction, adjust and orient legs to body direction (really fast !), then play normal movement animation</li></ul></li></ol>Doable ?

Hope it may not have funny, large and unmanageable impacts on A.I controlled character animations :)

deserves <b>TL;DR</b> : solution in NordKidchen gif would work : <b>in normal aim, you just have to copy aiming deadzone <i>animation behavior</i> AND <i>move the head as well to negate aiming deadzone visual effect</i></b> : the <b>crosshairs remain at the center of the screen</b> without "delayed crosshairs effect". On movement start, align the leg orientation with the body crosshair orientation, and voilà !

This is not so much of a big deal for me really. Sure I dont mind the tiny details being attendid to, but really now. nothing wrong with animations as they are now. You can use the deadzone to better this animation, or use free look.

After all, this effect will only be noticed whilst being still and looking around, So use free look instead, that is what it is there for. Freelook is there to control your head, or upper body when locking into iron sights, and general look is where your body faces.

@Earion - as far as I am concerned the movement is allways where your reticle aims at. Therefore the system shouldnt lead to this problem=)

Thanks for the write up!

Ps: MAybe your want to highlight your "TL:DR"-post with < b > ;)

@ShotgunSheamuS - of course its a question of taste if this bothers one or not - I for example care a lot about such things;)

But your suggestion to use freelook to fake this animation is not useable because it would give u a disadvantage over your enemys.
Also Freelook is not even there to "control your upper body when locking into ironsights" since you still can look left and right while in iron sights - and this only moves your head.

And the problem is "body" beeing everything apart from the head.

Allthough I think you didnt understand the system completely - I still accept your opinion;)

Best regards!

@ShotgunSheamuS : nope, I don't agree. Aiming deadzone is quite useful for exposing as little body parts you can while in cover or concealment. You find good position and expect to stay protected or hidden as long as you don't move around too much. Aiming deadzone allows this, but I hate the effect especially when it's maxed out. This would allow me to stop switching it on and off constantly.

Actually, with track IR, I would love to bind ALT to some "free aim" control instead of freelook, that would let me move the torso and arms only while keeping movement direction. Of course that's pushing it a lot.

Of course one can say it's a tiny detail. But to me, a new Arma is all about the details that will make it more thorough than any other shooter. It is a difficult task to make the game enjoyable both for casual and hardcore players. Paying enough attention to details is part of the solution to avoid making unnecessary compromises.

Despite the graphics and animation overhaul, A3 doesn't feel like a major improvement over A2. Feels like Arma 2++ with a new content DLC. Sometime it's even a regression compared to A2 + mods.

No deployable bipods (ACE2...) ? No running vault (smk_anim, st_bunnyhop...) ? Come on guys. It can't be that hard !

No anims for entering vehicles (10 years of GTA 3+...) ? No scaling walls (smk_anims) ? Smookie, I understand scaling was too buggy, that it is challenging to implement. I understand that GTA-like animations for vehicles is simply over the top. So I don't expect to see them in Arma 3 final... Given the current status :/.

But at least... address this issue ! It looks doable without HUGE rework, right ? Right ?

Oh and BTW... what about bringing back urban prone LEFT :P ????

Urban prone left is coming in a later version=)))

<b>@NK</b> good to hear about prone left, <b>TL;DR highlighted</b> with maniac use of bold :)

<b>@Smookie</b> Hope you now understand the issue better ! if movement vector is the same as crosshairs/torso orientation vector, I have the feeling it makes a solution easier, doesn't it ? So... possible ?

Oh god I love being on the customer seat of an issue tracker :) ... Hope all those requests will have some effect though :/

Good idea. I don't see the reason the already existing upper body turning animation is used only when Aiming deadzone is on. The current turning animation without Aiming deadzone is like that of WW2 tank destroyers which lack turrets.

Loki added a subscriber: Loki.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM
Loki added a comment.May 15 2013, 5:34 PM

It was a bit hard to get the context. So I looked into and I think, playing with deathzone option in 1st.p. is absolute horrible. It give more the feeling to be a robot then a human. The deathzone make only sin for 3rd.p.. But besides that, why light turning torso isn't standard when the tech is present.

Explanation failure? Some technical limit that binds the directions of the head and the lower body? I'm not sure...

EDcase added a subscriber: EDcase.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM

What you describe is basically 'Aiming Deadzone' that keeps the weapon in the centre of the screen.

Yes, I had a similar idea that you control the weapon with the upper torso and the hips/legs follow after.

Perhaps the speed of turn could determine the speed that the legs follow the torso direction.

What he describes is the animation exclusive to Aiming Deadzone, not Aiming Deadzone itself. Aiming Deadzone is about your weapon and upper body moving separately from your 'head(= center)', whereas the said animation is about your weapon and upper body moving separately from your 'lower body(to a certain degree)'. Logically this animation has no reason to be exclusive to Aiming Deadzone. Aiming Deadzone or not, we should be able to turn to a certain degree without moving our lower body.

<Turning to a certain degree>

C1. Current anim without Aiming deadzone

Weapon + Upper body + Head + Lower body(Just like old tank destroyers)

C2. Current anim with Aiming deadzone

Weapon + Upper body - Head - Lower body(Natural.. kind of)

E1. Expected anim without Aiming deadzone

Weapon + Upper body + Head - Lower body(What we want!)

E2. Expected anim with Aiming deadzone

Weapon + Upper body - Head - Lower body(The same as it is now)

I totally agree and would love to see such a feature.

It would be an awesome addition to immersion, especially together with the new stances.

Imagine side lying behind a small wall and be able to only move the rifle without using the aiming deadzone!

Love your tickets NordKindchen, upvote.

The videos don't play..
Fortunately, there's a duplicate report with working links.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11115
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPSUbZp_eQc&feature=youtu.be

I just cant get why this is not getting implemented better! You even have the system integrated - but only working with aiming deadzone.

Still you either dont understand what to do better or ...I dont know.

To have the torso move FIRST and then only have the legs move while aiming left and right would be such a big improvement to your animations!

And if you enable aiming deadzone this is EXACTLY WHAT YOU GET!

And you are telling me its impossible to implement the same behavior for when aiming deadzone is turned off?

YOu seriously must be kidding me!

Also: When you are in one of the middle stances your feed dont move when you turn left and right. I seriously cant believe how this is not fixed yet!

Guys I really love what you want to accomplish with this game but the more time passes and the less resutls I see in this parts of the game the more I get frustrated!

Mac84 added a subscriber: Mac84.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM
Mac84 added a comment.Aug 1 2013, 2:40 AM

This is a great idea, I don't understand why people are so confused by it.

It's really this simple: we want deadzone animations even when you have deadzone disabled.

deadzone animations look better and are more realistic.

Probably this is a low priority. I believe the devs will eventually fix this and that turning in adjusted stances thing you mentioned.

BTW, even Borderlands 2 has this implemented..
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/597009398750656854/BE4B2786FF712EF411316FF735CCBE52133A1056/

I have no problems with understanding your point. Please dont treat devs as mindless cows (even if we seem like ones ;) ) - for 95% of tickets its not that we do not know what to do but if its not being taken care of - that means it involves too many resources to be considered at given moment (or that the resources unavailable). So let me explain this one more time - this is not doable within the scope of the current animation system. In order to make this BF-like system work, there is programmers support needed which is rather unrelated to the animation crew itself.

BTW turning in adjusted stances is being worked on.

Thank you for your feedback Smookie!

Now your explaination is sufficent for me. I understand that the work of programmers is needed elsewhere at the moment.

Is there any chance this will get fixed in later patches?

Ps: Nice to hear about the adjusted stances!

Greetz

Simon added a subscriber: Simon.May 7 2016, 12:23 PM
Simon added a comment.Aug 3 2013, 3:24 PM

Unfortunately, we have tasks of higher priority (crashes and gameplay-breaking bugs) at this stage of development.

Arma 3's animation programming department will hopefully be able to address many possible improvements to the animation system later and deploy some of them in later patches. Upper torso/whole body turning might be one of them, since it's something most players notice a lot ingame.

Thank you for your time and information!

N keep up the good work!

The improvements to the DayZ animation system with "proper turning animations" seem very promising for accomplishing a fix to this issue in Arma 3.