This shouldnt be changed. You can hear suppressed weapon fire from this distance. Just look at this video for example: http://youtu.be/0iRrJCCcQyE?t=4m5s

Even Mythbusters busted this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhdXly6jT4E

Did you watch your own YouTube video? They confirmed that suppressors actually reduce the sound of a gun shot. So it should make at least a difference whether you use a silencer or not and the AI is way to precise estemating your location after you fired a silenced weapon.

They are suppressors not silencers. in game they reduce the sound of the shots fired, they reduce recoil and the damage they do. They do exactly what they are supposed to do, leave em alone please. nuff said

Well, then BI should add real silencers!

i thought some silencers were really good, actually i heard someone having quite a knowledge (infantry soldier here in germany) say that the mp5sd6 can fire rounds more quietly than its trigger sound

is that just a myth or can that be true?

Complete myth, I've shot quite a few suppressed weapons, and really the only one that was "quieter than the action cycling" was the Ruger MKII. Being that it's a .22lr so that's not saying much. Suppressors allow you to shoot without ear-pro, but they're certainly loud enough to understand what it is at a distance.

None of the currently implemented weapons are reallly built to be sileced. Lets wait until they release the HK MP5SD and true SD ammunition (a bullet from a suppressed weapon is still loud) before we start complaining.

Straight dope: A silencer is a suppressor is a silencer. A flash suppressor is something entirely different. As for a suppressor/silencer, the effectiveness depends on the original report volume, the noise reduction capability of the suppressor, and whether the bullet is supersonic or subsonic when it leaves the weapon. A relatively quiet round, such as your typical 9mm nato round, when fired from a suppressed weapon at a distance of about 100m or so will still have a sonic boom associated with it, which will sound like a loud crack or snap. However, the muzzle report would likely be unrecognizable, and may go unnoticed. This can result in the 'pop' of the shot coming not from the location it was fired from, but the direction that the bullet traveled in, resulting in observers being unable to locate the actual source of the shot. This effect can similarly be observed with higher power weapons such as assault or sniper rifles, though the report is much easier to detect for those cartridges. Using subsonic ammunition prevents the sonic boom, and can make the shot even less detectable, but subsonic ammo is typically not available for higher powered cartridges (no subsonic .308 win, for example). For a round like a .22LR, firing subsonic ammunition, it is definitely possible for a shot to be completely undetected beyond 50m, and unrecognized for what it is within 50m. However, for larger rounds, detection is inevitable. Further, even with, say, an mp5sd firing subsonic ammunition, which would be very difficult for the average person to identify, a soldier in a war zone will be much more paranoid about noises, and more prone to assume that an unidentified sound has nefarious origins.

@Zombo:
The MP5 SD6 is an integrally suppressed gun, that's why it can suppress the sound that good :)

@OP and others:
A suppressor without subsonic rounds is way less effective than a suppressor along with subsonic rounds.
As it is right now, we have no subsonic rounds mags, in ArmA3 (STANAG SD for example)

I think some people also heard guns with silencers firing supersonic ammo (also from a video posted further up), which also makes them louder; here you can hear the difference between subsonic and supersonic rounds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=6LR2CpuhVsk

EDIT: That said, there seems to be no subsonic ammo in game yet, respectively if you use the same supersonic rounds with a silencer, it sounds absolutely like subsonic. There is room for impovement.

a suppressor on a rifle is still around 70 to 80 Dezibel.
disagree.

http://youtu.be/cnU8o53z-WE

Solution - add silent melee kill.

@Xyron
it is only a solution, if it can replace his conditions, but to do what he wants, you need that melee kill + teleport in magicly + teleport out magicly.

During multiplayer games of wasteland, I've been able to clearly hear a suppressed gunshot from up to 500 metres away from the shooter, and use the sound to track him down.

Whenever going out on missions within ARMA 3, or any game, I always opt for the silenced/suppressed option. Especially within the ARMA 3 co-op, the AI tend to be configured to be excellent shots on most servers.

Using such a load-out, keeps me safe and the AI rarely shoot back. Unless of course, you're wimpy and don't know how to compensate for drift and have to go within 50-100 ft of the AI. ;-)

Currently, I experience a huge difference between using a suppressor and not. However, if an AI goes down and he's >100 ft away from his buddy AI, there's going to be a curve based on distance/awareness of how long until the buddy AI should react.

Currently, the reporter here is implying the reaction is immediate?

lol "ear pro".

Usually spec operators use suppressors not regular grunts.

I also can tell the difference between suppressed weapons and regular. Was this fixed meanwhile?

They are silencers.

And currently, silencers are louder than the sniper, and enemies will instantly know where you are even if they do not hear you or see you.

The only difference atm. between silenced and non-silenced, is that silenced requires 10 shots to kill, and unsilenced requires 1. Silencers are useless. Fix them or remove them.

There is more general issue with AI's awareness, as described here: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8204 Silencers can be finetuned only after AI behaves properly and doesn't use unfair tricks.

Also AI seems to be able to incorrectly shoot at targets, which it only heard - remember, currently we shoot supersonic bullets only, silencers or not.

I've just performed a test on the 0.59.105679 Dev build. With suppressed MX, it takes only 2 bullets to kill AI rifleman, from 550m. Without suppressor, it's between 1-2 bullets, depending on whether I score headshot or not. Detection time and AI behaviour was more or less the same.

But: I was playing a mission in one of the previous standard builds. It took 7-10 "suppressed" bullets, before AI pinpointed my location. Without suppressor, they knew after 1-2 bullets. Also the time required to find me, was visibly longer, when I used suppressor. So there is something to the suppressors, we jut need to have AI's general awareness fixed first.

suppressed is one thing ... silenced is another.

http://pinterest.com/robotmind/weapons-silenced-supressed/

THE WHISPERER is an acronym for a leathal semi automatic weapon.
if in game these are supressed then change the name in the ammo box.

Because (silenced) they are not. so please can we have both

To all the people saying suppressors can't make something quiet enough for stealth, you're just plain wrong.

When utilizing a suppressed weapon in a caliber that is inherently subsonic, such as a .45 handgun, with a good suppressor, it sounds about as loud as someone flicking a piece of paper.

Go ahead and try it. Grab a piece of paper, and flick it as hard as you can. It's pretty loud, but imagine if someone did that in the other side of your house...and just imagine, would you truly hear that, or care about it if you were doing something else like watching TV or browsing the internet?

The same principle applies when outdoors. If you are by the ocean, provided you're not directly next to someone, and you shoot a sentry in the back of the head or something, all AI within 200M shouldn't auto detect you.

EDIT: I just wanted to add, OPs idea of a James Bond stealth kill is not correct, but his general gripe with suppressors has some merit among A3's AI.

"If you are by the ocean, provided you're not directly next to someone, and you shoot a sentry, all AI within 200M shouldn't auto detect you."

I completely agree with this. Almost looks like a Laverne & Shirley skit when they do twirl in your direction.

you are using the word silenced when you mean suppressed. you are not firing subsonic rounds so there is still significant sound signature.

If you've ever been near a coastal region or within windy areas, the suppressed weapon would be effectively silenced by the surrounding environmental noise. You would likely not hear anything, except maybe your partners' body drop!

Also of note if you're around any heavy machinery or factory, you'll again not hear any shots fired except for maybe ricocheting rounds. Distance also becomes an exponential factor.

Just tried silenced Scorpion EVO 3 (SMG), which makes just tick-tick sounds, same as MP5SD6 and there is the same problem. You shot one guy and 50m away guys will just turn around and shot you.

I was sneaking up to a guy and wanted to use a knife to make the silent kill.
But there are no knives. ;-(

Suppressed weapons using subsonic ammo are very quiet. Certainly at 50-100m. While the Beta has suppressors, it does not have subsonic ammunition. Hopefully if this is added, the decreased sound will feature in game.

Downvoted, Guns are still really loud, even with a supressor. I think it's prefect like this.

As lots of people have said, there's no subsonic ammo yet. Get a silenced Scorpion, turn your third person camera so you're in front of the gun, and fire. Loud crack. That's how they can find you.

about the stealth, i played the night mission in beta and i reached the first house where the truck is parking. I did avoid the guards and placed a c4 near the truck. I set it 40 sec. And managed to escape from the scene undetected. When the bomb blown up all of the guards did shoot on me. But i was 50-100m away from the scene. So i think the stealth system need some attention.

On the latest developer snapshots, the AI now look and dance around sort of wildly after taking shots from a suppressed TRG? with SOS scope from a distant range.

As long as the rounds are spaced apart, but when shooting rapidly or when the last tracers rounds are presented, they then definitely spin in your direction and start shooting back with realistic precision.

Suppressor should only make it more difficult to pinpoint shooter in first shots and lower the max range from people hearing you shooting (like 500-700m).

Silencers with lower caliber weapons (.22 etc) are really silent with subsonic cartridges but penetration is terrible and range drop is huge.

After 700m a suppressed rifle doesn't reveal for target your location and bullets don't "whisle" because their speed is so low unless windspeed is non-existent and environment sounds as well in minimum, but that range it is hard to get a accurate hits.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=66d_1298423219

22. caliber pistols with silencers would be like in movies, generating just "click click" sounds on each shot, a 9mm VSS vintorez would be a very silent but still causing sound for ~200m range when you have line of sight to shooter. Shooting behing obstacle what blocks sound waves to other directions would limit the hearing possibilities.

So much knowledge in this place :D

I guess I will be the smartarse now. But anyhow, there is no such thing as a silencer. The word itself makes people believe it is completely silent after attaching a "silencer". This is Hollywood and far from reality. Some people here wrote a suppressed rifle is 80 dB. It's not. A suppressed rifle still brings about 130dB, maybe 125dB. Compared to 180+dB unsuppressed this does make a huge difference.

Suppressors, as the name says, suppress the muzzle blast and change the report to something that does not sound like a gunshot. For a trained individual, the noise is still recognized as being a shot.

As written correctly, the only type of weapon that can be suppressed to a level that makes it almost impossible to hear beyond several meters (not talking one digit distances!) is a .22lr. These weapons were and are still preferred by agencies in assassinations, because the weapon is small and concealable, almost silent and deadly within point blank ranges.

In games suppressed weapons are mistaken for Hollywood guns. That is one of the reasons us Germans are not allowed to use them for recreational shooting, because nobody could hear us shoot...yeah. Well, this is not a political rant, so back to facts.

Suppressed weapons do NOT do less damage as the "Field Manual" suggests. If you have your buddy (or nemesis) shoot a suppressed weapon above your head, you will still hear the supersonic crack. So why should the suppressed weapon do less damage, if the projectile still travels at its usual velocity?

Fact is, a suppressor can increase the accuracy and reduces recoil. Not so in ArmA 3. Fact is a suppressor does not alter the velocity of the projectile except for the MP5SD which utilizes brushes to slow down the 9x19mm projectile to subsonic speed. Any 9mm pistol/SMG/rifle has 350+m/s muzzle velocity= supersonic.

Any .45ACP round is below 300m/s and therefore subsonic by default. That leads to a simple truth: Not every caliber is effectively suppressed. A .45ACP is a good choice for suppressed shooting, because you don't need to use subsonic loads.

Above 9mm the projectile produces a supersonic crack, unless the load is subsonic, which reduces the range, not the damage. If you still fire supersonic rounds (eg 5,56x45 at 950-1100m/s) you will not suffer from reduced damage or range.

In modern days, suppressors are used to make it difficult to spot the shooters position. You can not pin point a shooter just by the supersonic crack, because this is omnidirectional for the human ear. That's where systems come into play that can calculate the position of a shooter by triangulating the sound. Since the human has only two ears and not the ability of any owl to spot the source, you can not spot the shooter without the muzzle report.

That being said:

We need following changes for realistic suppressed weapons:

a) realistic sound levels & travelling distances
b) realistic muzzle velocities
c) supersonic and subsonic ammunition where applicable
d) correct nomenclature (and ArmA already calls them Suppressors, kudos BIS!)
e) less Hollywood magic, so the truth is not distorted by lack of knowledge of the COD generation...

Thanks for reading my smart arse comment and don't feel offended if your entry was used as reference for above mentioned lack of knowledge.

Cheers,

Predator, part of the firearms industry.

This isn't as much an issue with the suppressors themselves as it is with the AI, the AI need to be fixed. Firing a suppressed weapon isn't as quiet as a hiss, it's still really loud and still creates a small muzzle signature. Obviously at range, they cannot be heard, but it shouldn't be as bad as Hollywood movies where they're practically silent weapons. 200 meters and up, you probably won't hear a suppressed assault rifle shot if you're standing near a crackling camp fire, or a storm is creating a lot of noise. This issue is hard to fix, because there are so many variables when it comes to using a suppressed weapon in a fire fight. At this point, it's the AI that need to be fixed, as stealthy insertions are nearly impossible in the first place, even without firing a single shot.

Isn't there currently a bug where all AI know where you are after you kill someone? Do they have the same reaction if you intentionally miss?

I do think that stealth definitely needs improvement.

Something rather interesting is how the AI react to subsonic ammunition. In dev branch the Vermin and ACP are .45ACP now. They do not have a supersonic crack when you shoot them. While shooting unsuppressed doesn't really change anything, it seems that the AI do react slower/not at all(very rare) to the shooting if you're not too close if the weapon is suppressed.

I have been up on a cliff overlooking the main airbase and I fired a silenced weapon once and I was shot almost instantly. There is no confusion the AI picks up the shot and knows exactly where it came from without failure

People need to learn the difference between "silenced" and "suppressed". I'm so tired of people running around with their "silenced" LMG's, etc. come on. Anyway, I do agree that this is a very important topic and needs to be viewed. Suppressed weapons are FAR too quiet in A3, as well as a few other issues already discussed.

+1 to ThePredator for setting things straight, that is a must-view post.

9x19 -> 350-400 m/s, max. effective range: <100m, sound level: 159.8 dB

.45ACP -> 250-270 m/s, max effective range: <75m, sound level: 157.0 dB

5,56x45 -> 900-950 m/s, max. effective range: <700m, sound level: 155.5dB

6,5x39 Grendel -> 760-880 m/s, max. effective range: <730m, sound level: no data

7,62x51 -> 740-850 m/s, max. effective range: <800m, sound level: 156.2dB

.408CheyTac -> 880-1100 m/s, max. effective range: <2000m, sound level: +170dB

12,7x99 -> 860-930 m/s, max. effective range: <1800m, sound level: +175 dB

Now let's assume a suppressor reduces the sound level by 30dB average. An decrease by 10dB is perceived as half as loud.

A spoken conversation is about 70-80 dB, a slam shut door 120dB. Now go figure how far the sound travels (I can not be held responsible for broken doors or angry neighbours).

The range is not affected by the suppressor. The accuracy can be increased by up to 30%, depending on weapon and caliber. Let's say 10% average.

The kinetic energy does not suffer and therefore the damage potential.

The supersonic crack (up to 120dB!) can not be traced to the origin and should make the AI at least duck and cover. They should investigate the surroundings. If there is light, movement or noise, they will be alerted.

A suppressor reduces the muzzle flash entirely or at least makes it neglectable.

Using subsonic loads reduces the effective range depending on bullet weight and speed. High kinetic mass does travel farther and offers longer effective ranges. For example a subsonic 7,62x51 load is effective up to 300m.

Subsonic means a muzzle velocity (v0) of <340 m/s. That is more than half the velocity of a supersonic load of the same caliber.

That being said, you can not suppress long range calibers and expect the same ranges with a subsonic load.

So the conclusion of this little write up:

Subsonic loads only make sense for a few calibers and purposes. 5,56x45, 7,62x51 and 9x19. The rest of the above listed calibers are not suited for subsonic loads or are already subsonic (.45ACP).

What buggers me is the way of setting muzzle velocities in ArmA games. It's not the gun that dictates the velocity, it is the ammunition. But to be precise, the barrel length should factor the v0. You could load a 9x19mm with 350m/s into a long barreled gun and still get 350m/s. Did BIS change that in ArmA3? Do longer barrels generate higher v0? This would be essential in ammunition calculations. A carbine will not generate as much v0 as a marksman variant (14,5" to 18 or 20"). So my notion would be to make the gun dictate the v0 or at least add a factor for barrel length to increase/decrease the muzzle velocity accordingly.

But this might be another issue not directly related to "stealth" and "suppressors".

That's all folks, thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts on that matter.

thank you predator, its always nice to read some educated facts and learn new things!

why dont you open a ticket about ammo calibers, barrel lenghts, range and accuracy? someone competent as you should be able make a great contribution to realism, and after all rifles and ammo are core stuff in ARMA.

I added ThePredator's write-up to "additional info", but I think given this info, this ticket makes less and less sense.

There is no "silent kill" with a 130dbA crack from a rifle somewhere out there, in an open valley at 300m, but the AI should be confused as to where it comes from. I think AI being too accurate on pinpointing sounds is already being worked on and current reaction should be compared to latest dev builds.

Need feedback about current behaviour before closing this ticket down.

but this may lead to better silencers and stealth hand weapons like .22 LR calibers.

here is how to get silent kill;

use EBR at 400m, = 800mps exit velocity = 0.6 second time to target -> attenuation

engage 3 targets in 0.5 seconds

targets are dead before gunshot sounds get there

;)

Thanks Fireball,

you are right about "silent kills". There is no way of killing someone silent with a gun, as long as it not a .22lr.

I am not sure how sound is processed in the AIs "ear". Let's say there is a thunderstorm or a artillery barrage nearby. The environmental sound level should increase, so that with a bit of timing, you can fire while the thunder clap is heard or a artillery grenade goes off and so on. If the AI still "hears" a suppressed gun shot over a bomb going off next to them, there is no way of creating distractions that actually work. Like setting up a timed explosive on the opposite side of the shooter. The AI should investigate unfamiliar sound instead of "knowing" who shot what from where.

But this is not really part of the suppressor issue, it is the next level of sound physics.

Developer Change Log Entry
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?149636-Beta-Development-branch-changelog/page10

09-08-2013
EXE rev. 08717

"Sound suppressors are now more effective on greater range (shot is not hearable beyond 200 meters)"

Read that, too. Had no time to test that and how if affects gameplay.

No good...

So what is the status of this ticket?

Suppressed weapons now are unheard beyond 200m range despite various original sound levels and still reduce the damage.

Did I miss something?

Oh yes, the muzzle flash, although non existent, lights up the shooter position.

Unrealistic... @ThePredator with your data there's a problem now in the game!

If those sound levels were in-game, weapons would not be unheard at a fixed range. The fall-off would be proportional to their suppressed volume. Same as the unsuppressed weapon is unheard at a specific range. But there is no invisible sound barrier for all weapons.

Agree

Regardless a bullet zipping by will still be noticed and you will also be able to tell the general direction that it is coming from. I own an AAC M4-2000 suppressor, it only makes the rifle hearing safe it is still very audible just below hearing safe 140dB.

@ThePredator

"7,62x51 -> 740-850 m/s, max. effective range: <800m, sound level: 156.2dB"

On what do you base that example?

Literature/own experience/customer feedback. As I said, weapons are my daily job. These are average loads and their respective measured values.

Mass closing ancient tickets with no activity this year; assume fixed or too trivial etc.

If this issue is still relevant in current dev build, please create a new ticket referencing this one and request for it to be re-opened.

The way BI coded this for the AI is actually not that bad, but the use of the actual suppressor-attached gun sound that does not seem to depend on supersonic or subsonic ammo for the human players is pretty poor.