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Military Toxicity (High-End Civilian Loot)
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[Note: This does not involve weapons, discussing clothing and bags only here.]

I'm certain I don't need to explain why the combat-centrism that followed DayZ as it branched out of its military simulation roots is toxic. Hackers and KoSers are the number one non-performance-related complaint I see in discussions on the game, and it may be the relationship that it has with ArmA that's to blame. The first step we can take in severing this association involves something we spend a LOT of time on, but may not think much about: our loot progression.

Since the SA became available, the 'best' gear (most inventory slots, waterproofing, high durability, low visibility) has been military gear. TTKSO and Gorka clothing, tactical helmets, combat boots, military bags, and the numerous vests are objectively better than just about anything you can find in civilian areas. Players seek these pieces immediately after spawning because nothing else is worth looking for by comparison. The result is that players who survive longer than a few hours all tend to look the same, but more importantly, they all look like soldiers. This is where the toxicity starts to build. We want to look the part because the gear is good, and so act the part because that's what people wearing uniforms and holding automatic weapons in a land with no laws do (in our vidya-addled minds, anyway).

My proposed solution: Awesome civilian loot. Anyone who has a serious passion for outdoor activities like hiking, skiing, or snowboarding has considered dropping $300 on a high-quality coat, boots, or pants. I absolutely have. I would also argue that companies catering to these hobbies would make a better product than companies manufacturing for military outfits (while practically designed, military goods are provided by the lowest bidder). The game needs to distance itself from the combat fantasy formula and become its own, and you can contribute to this by deincentivizing the rush to the cookie-cutter gear endgame.

Make them rare as anything else, but we need to stop looking like enemy combatants to each other and start looking like people. {F31039} {F31040} {F31041}


Legacy ID
Feature Request
Steps To Reproduce


Additional Information

Hunting and fishing vests
Name-brand snowsport jackets and pants
Hunting jackets
Common civilian clothes in camo patterns
High-capacity civilian clothes (rare)
'Fixed' Gorka and EMT clothing

Event Timeline

SgtPotatoes edited Additional Information. (Show Details)
SgtPotatoes set Category to Feature Request.
SgtPotatoes set Reproducibility to N/A.
SgtPotatoes set Severity to None.
SgtPotatoes set Resolution to Open.
SgtPotatoes set Legacy ID to 3391334568.May 8 2016, 8:54 PM

I definitely agree with this. I must say it is really assuring to find someone else in this game that also wants good gear that's not military. I'm not trying to sound like a hipster here, though I probably so, but it would be really cool if not everybody was trying to look the same. I like the idea of having good civilian gear being as hard to come by as military gear and only spawning inland or something like that but lets add some variety. I think even just adding more color customization would be an awesome improvement. For example adding more spraypaint colors and making more items paintable, or just having different colored military gear spawn (but it may be unrealistic if people could find a purple tactical vest).

lenni20 added a subscriber: lenni20.May 8 2016, 8:54 PM

I think your idea is good, because you do not simply want to reduce military loot to a ridiculous small amount like other people. But i do not think that even with slightly better civilian loot anything will change. The first reason is camouflage pattern on military clothing. Most people would choose a military jacket even if the red 500 euro Jack Wolfskin counterpart has double the capacity. The second aspect is that there is no civilian counterpart for things like ballistic helmets, vests, and so on. These items will be jused as long as they are in the game by most people.

Lenni, I absolutely agree with you about camo. Civilian clothes can borrow profile-disrupting patterns too, though. Haven't seen any digi camo yet. :D

Ballistic helmets are going to be the best in head protection, I'm afraid, but there are still things like rock climbing helmets, wrestling headgear, etc. that could be useful. Vests could come from hunting and fishing supplies, as I mentioned under 'additional info'.

You are right but i am afraid that the visual difference between hunting equipment and military clothing is not that big at all. Nevertheless i do support your idea because it would help spreading the people over the whole map but military bases would remain dangerous because of the better guns which, i guess is good as it is.

It's the principle of the thing, I think. The 'best gear' shouldn't be synonymous with 'military gear' across the entire loot table.

KahLeeb added a subscriber: KahLeeb.May 8 2016, 8:54 PM

Considering ALL gear, I'm a civilian, and i have within the room I'm sitting in about as much gear as I've ever found in one of the barracks in dayz.

(i know you're talking about civilian clothing not guns, ill touch on that at the end)

Within my line of sight right now i can see 2 AR15s in gun bags, a pump 12 gauge, a 91/30 Mosin (literally the same gun from the game, they're super cheap and common IRL, i think i paid 100$ for it), there is a revolver and ammunition on my desk (i have a concealed carry license), I see an ammo can in the corner (which i know is full of 7.62 and .223) there are a couple of surplus canteens on my dresser (just got them at a gun show last week because they were 2$ each), i see another hiking canteen, and a couple of knives. I see a tan canvas courier bag, a snow-camo backpack, and a black backpack i use for my laptop. There is a weapon cleaning kit on top of the ammo can and there is another one in the drawer of this desk. I have a heavy tan hunting jacket, a black wool coat, and a lot of warm clothing in my closet. there are several 30rd magazines in a drawer behind me, and there is also a Beretta m9 in that same drawer as well as couple holsters.

Granted I live in Michigan, US, and its not too uncommon to have these things where I live, especially if your hobbies include shooting and hiking.
But my point is that military bases are not the only place good loot can be found in real life. And to me it doesn't make sense that the only way you can get the best gear is to go to the military buildings.

As far as how everyone ends up being in camo, the highest quality civilian gear is still likely to be either a form of camo, or plain tan or plain black. However civilian camo is usually not exactly matching military camo (since there are a ton of camo patterns available.
For example almost all of my camo gear is white with black brush overlay. because its snowy more than a third of the year here.

Good example is the paramedic jacket. Only 2x2 capacity and not waterproof. (might have changed as I haven't tested them lately) I've been working for the Red Cross and I remeber sturdy, waterproof jackets with a lot of pockets to store stuff. Same goes for the trousers.

I don't mind that highly valued military loot is mainly found at military bases. KahLeeb, that's Chernarus not USA. And believe me shooting as a hobby is not SO common in the rest of the world.

KahLeeb, don't talk about $100 Mosins, it makes me very sad.

Zimtente, that's a great example. It runs directly opposed to the Gorka suit, which is not waterproof AT ALL in reality. The value of these two could easily be reversed (Though I'm certain the Gorka would still be more popular).

variety of loots won't stop KoS :D Is someone wants to use a gun...well they will.
Adding more lott, it can be good, but if it's new, people gonna be interested in it to see how it looks can increase the amount of KoS.

I know that KoS can be frustrating but let's just think about it. How can you be killed on sight?

Are you walking on the middle of the road? if you see people, just stop in front of them and say "hi" with raised hands? if yes then we have nothing to talk about :D Most of the KoS victims are just way too friendly...

There should be high end civilian loot even in respect to weaponry. A good hunting rifle with next to no recoil and good optics in a common hunting calibre should beat any mosin as long as the target is not wearing ballistic protection.

As to the other discussion: The only reason people even think about killing each other, and on sight as well, is because the environment is totally benign. Zs aren't any danger once you've grabbed an axe, even a farming hoe will suffice if you're not stupid as hell.

If the environment was really dangerous, so people would actually NEED each other's help, things would be totally different. For instance, keeping a tide of Zs out of a house, and you can't do that alone. You need to find other survivors to help you barricade and defend the place. Now THAT would be awesome.

Of course none of that is feasible with the present, erm, zombie pathfinding.

First off, what a weird title.

Having said that, you are right that military gear is super OP

Though in Chernarous, I would expect high-quality military gear to be more common than expensive civilian gear.

However, just for the survival and post apocalyptic experience, I also think military gear should be reduced.

Example: Gorka gear. Sure, there's some elite unit in Gorka (where there's not even a military base) and they have awesome stuff. But it's so overpowered: 6 pockets instead of four, camouflaged, rain-proof, keeps you warm.....
There is no civilian clothes comparable.

Some civilian clothes like the bomber jacket or the riders jacket aren't even rainproof to the slightest degree.

There is no 6-pocket jacket, except the firefighter jacket afaik.

Damn, man, why do you have so many weapons? You won't be in more safety by having more guns.xD
For me... if you want to play Dayz in more hardcore way - implement your own rules, don't wear Gorka, don't use military gear, don't get into heavy firefights, "turn on" the roleplay!
People who just want to quickly gear up "military" are pretty stupid, no offense guys. But as quick they gear up, as quick they become dead in another useless firefight.

@colonel: That's a good point, I suppose most of Chernarus is kinda 'country'. Military gear should go down overall while civilian gear becomes more common, even if the really good civvys are harder to find than good military.
'Gorka' just means 'hill', referring to the type of terrain it was designed for. Unrelated to Gorka the town. The suit is pretty true to life, though it's nowhere near waterproof. EMT jackets should be what Gorkas are now.

@Zyryanoff: Following a playstyle is more interesting, but there's nothing 'stupid' about taking risks looking for valuable items. Unless you expect anyone you meet to share. :P

@SgtPotatoes: if you read the description of the Gorka gear, it implies there is a military base there.

@Zyryanoff: I would run around in more civilian stuff if the inventory system wasn't so ridiculously over the top. You can not fit enough stuff for survival into a small bag, even if you go with the basics.. And besides that, Gorka is the only rain-proof gear, leather jackets and police and firefighter gear in Chernarous is made of toweling, apparently.

@colonel: The pants do say that, and I cannot figure out why. There are no military buildings in Gorka the town, and the first Gorka suits were made for the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Whoever wrote that description either doesn't know where the name comes from, or is intentionally misidentifying it for some reason. Maybe copyright law?

Llew added a subscriber: Llew.May 8 2016, 8:54 PM
Llew added a comment.Mar 13 2015, 12:24 AM

The thing is that gameplay wise you need to make players encounter each other. If any city provide the same quality of loots/weapons people will never go on the Northwest of the map. You need to drive players on specific part of the map to get specific stuff. Hospitals in case of infections, Airfields for military gear, helicopters for high end gear. It is a game after all.

In theory your idea sounds good (I do agree there should be better civilian gear available) But ultimately the best gear needs to be from specific HIGH RISK HIGH gain areas this then introduces the RISK to GAIN element, Do you risk your life to get better equipment or do you play it safe?

I don't think that top-tier civilian clothes should spawn evenly across the map, there would need to be a higher chance to find quality items the further inland you travel, and a higher chance in isolated towns and single cabins. Folks living in the city wouldn't have as much of a need to hunt or weather the harsher elements. Keeping medical supplies to hospitals and car parts to garages makes sense, but everybody wears clothes no matter where you go.

I absolutely disagree with you about the best gear ONLY being found in certain 'high-risk' areas (Which invariably translates to military zones). Like I've said, keeping military clothing on the top is BORING and promotes KoS. There is no reason why we would not be able to find jackets, pants, and bags that are as good or better (functionally) as a military uniform. Civilians need good clothing, there are (were) private companies that produce good clothing to meet that need, and potentially to a higher standard of quality. What do rich Chernarussians wear when they're cold?

I never said it had to be Military gear, (Although this is the obvious choice), My point was that just like real life getting the best gear would usually involve a high risk, This is what makes the game challenging and involves "Risk assessment". As for "military gear", It doesn't need to be military, You could always include local civilian gun shops, Hunting/Camping shops that have similar gear but they would also need to involve some risk as these are the places that most people would head for (More people more zombies etc.).

If its possible for all the best gear that you require to spawn just about anywhere then there is no need to move about the map, just stop in one spot and wait for it to spawn, this does not make the game challenging.

People are going to look for some form of weatherproof, Camo.,High capacity gear whether this be Military or civilian so will inevitably end up looking the same anyway.

You also have to bear in mind civilian equipment is not designed to give the same protection that military equipment is, When you go out hunting it is not often that your pray will return fire with an AK unless you are hunting your fellow man.

There is no stopping and waiting for item spawns, though. Unless you're talking about server hopping, which is a separate issue altogether. Civilian clothing should spawn anywhere civilians live or travel, but the chance to spawn the best civilian clothing can vary by map region, as I mentioned in my reply to Llew. Folks who live in the colder northern areas of Chernarus will be more likely to own more weather-resistant clothing.

We'll be looking for the best clothing, sure, but we'll be stuck with whatever we can find. The really good stuff can be rare, but it needs to be out there. Clothes get damaged, too. The longer you live, the more chances you'll have to ruin your Gorka and need something else.

And neither civilian nor military issued clothing is designed to give you protection from a bullet. Only a ballistic vest, helmet, or plate carrier will do that.

I think you guys are going to like .55
@LuisCyphre Just got off the Experimental and zombies are a whole new animal now. They are effected by noise and a line of sight, not some magic radar perimeter like in stable. Also in Exp they aren't currently making that tell tale scream when they aggro onto a player. Their attacks are MUCH wider in arc and higher in damage (at least to your clothing). They also appear to be quite a bit tougher to take down, some zombies taking anywhere from 3-5 fire axe body hits to die. Oh and they attack faster...

Admittedly I am one of those military gear whores you guys are talking about. And after coming from a northern sweep of Pavlovo MB and NWAF my Gorka pants and jacket were ruined by the time I got to Pustoshka/Sosnovka and my Gorka helmet with visor was badly damaged. I was even using the pump shotgun in my hands to deal with zombies the whole way there. They are very sneaky now and only seem to display an aggro indicator when they aggro off of another zombie (even then I don't recall this happened every time)

The whole strategy of "oh hey there's a zombie I'm gonna go dodge its attacks and bonk it with a melee weapon with little to no fear of repercussion" is in decline on .55

And on topic... I do agree that some civilian loot should be improved, but remember that most military clothing can actually be found in civilian areas. Fire station and wrecked V3S come to mind

warcryr added a subscriber: warcryr.May 8 2016, 8:54 PM

I think Russia spends more on their military than their people. The gap between military and civilian might make sense.

So if higher end civilian gear is added, it would probably still be more rare than military.

soux added a subscriber: soux.May 8 2016, 8:54 PM
soux added a comment.Apr 6 2015, 1:55 AM

I just found three M65 jackets in Residential, wot?

Syrell added a subscriber: Syrell.May 8 2016, 8:54 PM

I like this Idea water proved civilian clothing should be there not only raincoat