- User Since
- Jun 12 2014, 8:47 AM (414 w, 2 d)
Mar 24 2017
@armaprix ended this conversation dozens of replies ago.
Mar 15 2017
Hey, guys. I hope this sheds some light on the issue!
Mar 14 2017
Experience this tonight.
May 10 2016
Explained in the content.
I'd like to note that I don't think the addition of these suppressors would undermine the sales of the DLC very much. The DLC contains great new content that dovetails very nicely with the vanilla rifle selection, and therefore stands strongly on it's own merits as a worthwhile purchase. I'm very happy with it, but would still like to round out the suppressor availability over the entire vanilla + DLC range of small arms by filling that small, 2 caliber gap.
Thanks for considering!
To be clear: You're saying that the DLC adds the suppressor attachments for the vanilla .50 and .408 rifles? Because that's what this ticket is about. The ticket is not about asking for the ability to purchase the feature for the vanilla game where it is inexplicably absent.
In short, the DLC has nothing to do with this ticket as it's not a request for new weapons or new attachments.
Considering the timeline of events, and the specificity of ticket 0011184, which was closed as a duplicate to this one, I must respectfully disagree.
Regardless, since this ticket is now closed, I have opened a new Feature Request that I believe reflects what I believe to be the original intent of this ticket and it's duplicate.
Let's wrap this up!
THE SUPERSONIC CRACK OF THE PROJECTILE
This sound is not affected by a suppressor, but what most people don't understand is that it is virtually impossible to determine point of origin, or even the general direction of the source, based on this sound. When using a suppressor to reduce the chance of the shooter's location being determined, this sound is moot as it only reveals the fact that there IS a shooter. This is unavoidable in shooting at any range beyond a couple hundred meters because ...
Only useful in a situation where the reduced velocity of a given cartridge does not render its ballistics ineffective. Can you hit and eliminate a target at 1,300m with a 9mm or .45 auto pistol? How about 500m? 300m? Of course not. But that's the kind of velocity you're looking at to get below the supersonic threshold. (1,100 fps / 340 mps) It doesn't matter what kind of weapon or caliber you have ... that's the speed limit if you want to eliminate the supersonic crack.
Subsonic ammo is so limited in application that it's not a valid argument when it comes to any kind of long-range shooting.
FORGET CALIBER, WEAPON, GAMES, MOVIES, SEMANTICS, NIT-PICKING SCENARIOS, ETC
A suppressor reduces the sound signature of a weapon. PERIOD.
Proper deployment / tactics take advantage of that fact to varying degrees. PERIOD.
This is your choice in real life:
BOOM! (directional sound detectable out to x meters) + CRACK! (nondirectional sound)
Suppressed BOOM! (directional sound detectable to x meters - y meters) + CRACK! (nondirectional sound)
The second option makes the shooter's location less detectable by y meters. PERIOD.
People arguing every possible scenario need only refer back to this simple choice. Do you want the advantage offered or not? That's your choice and you should be able to exercise that choice by equipping a suppressor or not. The choice should NOT be based on the arbitrary exclusion of the suppressor in the first place.
As for how a game implements anything at all, THAT is what feedback is for. "The physics of this that or the other thing needs to be tweaked." NOT, "Even though this exists in real life, I think it should be omitted because I think it should be."
SUPPRESSORS FOR THESE CALIBERS EXIST IN REAL LIFE
This should really be the only argument necessary for including them in the game!
Etc, etc, etc.
Seriously; this entire discussion should end right here. They already exist! Put them in the game!
LET THIS BE THE END OF THE DISCUSSION
I cannot make this any clearer to the people who don't like the idea of having suppressors for these weapons in Arma. There is absolutely no valid argument against it other than for "gameplay" reasons. IMO, gameplay reasons are what force an otherwise great simulator into being just a game.
What is your favorite aspect of the game that simulates something that exists in real life? I could whine and piss and moan about whatever it is and come up with reasons why it shouldn't be in the game. I would be wrong to do so because none of my arguments would counter the fact that it's something REAL.
If you read my previous posts in this ticket, you'll see that I've gone over this stuff multiple times. I can only imagine that people still arguing against it have not read anything other than the title of the ticket.
But then the argument would be that we don't need them for any of the weapons. :-) In the distance that the sound has not faded out yet, someone would have a chance to determine which direction you are in. In the end, that's the only point of suppressors in this context anyway ... limit the range at which you can be located by the sound of the muzzle report.
TBH, I don't get the feeling that the company looks at these threads much. Perhaps the Marksman DLC will have it if they are focusing on more realistic long range weapon systems.
This isn't about you or I being right or wrong ... facts are facts, and the game sticks to them somewhat reasonably or it doesn't. If the game imposes any limitations to suppressors that do not exists IRL, or if it gives them advantages that they should not have such as the rolloff distance being too short, then the developers need to hear that via this forum.
The way to do that is to post suggestions specific to a given issue, and to stay on-topic in existing threads.
This thread has nothing to do with the general implementation of suppressors in Arma 3, the use of subsonic ammunition, or the myriad considerations in how to effectively and practically utilize suppressors in the field ... but almost all of these things tend to come up when the subject of suppressors comes up in any game-related forum.
Having said that, a few sincere questions:
Does the game increase recoil on suppressed weapons? (I've honestly not noticed.) If so, that would be ridiculous indeed. As of a few years ago, the majority of shooters in high-end, long-range competitive rifle matches use suppressors because of the significant reduction in recoil and, as reported by most of the shooters who use them, improved accuracy.
As for the suppressed muzzle report, do we know the actual "rolloff" distance for the various suppressors in the game? I agree that the distance at which the muzzle report is detectable is important, but when it comes to long-range shooting, which is after all the very specific topic of this thread, the point is moot. Again, a good topic to suggest via this forum in it's own thread since it does not apply to this one.
The wonderful thing about modern suppressors is that they do in fact have advantages with few, if any, penalties. The reason most games impose fictional penalties (reduced accuracy, reduced power, etc) is, IMO, to appease players who whine about it being unfair that someone can engage them from long distances while remaining effectively hidden due to the lack of a detectable muzzle report. Sadly for those players, weapon systems are not generally designed with an eye toward fairness.
It took me a moment to understand what you meant about my "signature". :-) I suppose it's a deeply ingrained habit from years of professional and personal written communication. Experience is funny that way.
Very best regards,
You didn't specify which aspect you feel is absurd. (or offer anything to support the opinion)
Is it the ballistics?
The range at which AI hear the weapon?
The way the AI reacts to being under fire at long range by a suppressed weapon?
They way they are interchangeable between most weapons of the same caliber?
The modeling of them?
The sound effects?
The method of attaching and removing them?
Voting against this issue based on how you feel about the suppressors in the game as a whole is misguided. If that's how you feel, then give that feedback in the correct place: Post your own suggestion to change / remove the current suppressors and then up-vote it.
The engine is already using ballistic modeling, and fortunately there is little, if any change needed in the addition of the suppressors. Games that greatly reduce the effectiveness of suppressed weapons versus their unsuppressed configuration are completely full of crap and do that out of a sense of balancing gameplay. Super heavy use of the word "game" when it comes to titles that do that kind of thing.
For what it's worth, I feel that the suppressors in the game are relatively realistic; a modern suppressor has little impact on the performance of the projectile or accuracy of the weapon. (and the affects that it can have can be both positive and negative)
I feel fortunate to have spent time working with these types of devices (demonstrating, testing, and selling), but it probably does make me come across as a little stubborn on this topic. I'm happy to clarify the facts in any way that I can, and I hope that this feedback topic does not get too many holes shot into it by those who are either unsure of how these devices work, or who are missing the point of the original post. It's not about suppressors in general or the concept of subsonic ammo.
It's simply a question of why we currently have options A-D, but not options E and F.
I am hoping that someone who actually works for the company will participate in the discussion!
It’s great to see some discussion on this topic again!
I respectfully, but strongly disagree with any reasoning based on opinion of the devices, their use, or their affect on gameplay. I cannot emphasize this enough as such arguments are entirely subjective; based solely on personal preference of gameplay, and personal understanding (or lack of) the technology and it’s effective deployment in the field.
Let me reemphasize my primary point, and it’s supporting logic, with this bulleted list:
— Large caliber suppression exists and is used extensively in current day military systems.
ARMA is a simulation, not a game, therefore the above criteria should be the beginning and end of the entire question of suppressors for rifles of all calibers.
Every other factor is personal opinion, and making decisions about whether or not to include combat proven equipment that is (especially in the game) decades-old, designed specifically for the decades-old weapon technology, and has been effectively and extensively used in the field for decades, is what pushes ARMA onto the slippery slope of becoming just a game. Worse, and perhaps most selfishly, it unfairly foists artificial limitations on every player’s personal play style by limiting the equipment available to them.
Here’s an example of the arbitrary nature of such limitations: I can fly a helicopter with a keyboard and mouse. I can run, jog, walk, even up steep grades, without ever having to rest, even with a heavy pack. I can use a plethora of advanced, even futuristic weapons systems. I can shoot at someone over a kilometer away with a suppressed .30 caliber rifle. However, I can’t shoot at someone at greater distances with a suppressed rifle of a larger caliber, despite the fact that the technology of being able to do so is exactly the same, just as common, and utilized in the field for the exact same reasons as the suppressors that are already present in the game … suppressors that I am happy to have and use.
Anything other than, “Does it exist in the mainstream lineup of military weapons systems of the real world?” is arguing for an arbitrary limitation on the game based on personal opinion. Please don’t do this to this amazing franchise. If anything, let this topic stand as the perfect example of a change being made to the game based on the aforementioned, to-the-point logic and reasoning.
To touch one more time on the issue of subsonic ammo: A suppressor performs the same function, regardless of caliber or velocity of the projectile ... it reduces the muzzle blast of the weapon by slowing and cooling the expanding gasses from the burnt/burning propellent before it reaches the external atmosphere, and in some designs uses resonant cancelation to convert the sound waves into heat.
Subsonic ammo has a specific application for shorter range situations that does not apply to the rifles in question. It's a legit request / topic, but is one that is independent of the specific topic of suppressors for sniper rifles where the very design of the rifle, the lands and grooves and twist-rate of the rifling, barrel length, etc, are all designed around a specific envelope of projectile weight and velocity.
This should happen, and it is long overdue.
- There is no difference in suppressing one of these rifles vs suppressing one of the other rifles in the game other than the scale and design of the suppressor. A .50 BMG suppressor is to a 7.62x51 suppressor what that suppressor is to a 9mm suppressor … it’s just a matter of scale.
- The exact same supersonic crack issue applies to the smaller rifles, submachine guns, and most handguns. The fact that these are larger rifles / calibers means nothing … same technology, same results, same tactical / gameplay / AI considerations. Do you want a weapon that has a massively reduced muzzle blast? Of course you do. Put a can on it. The other factors remain, but you’ve gained one huge advantage.
- They supersonic crack gives away presence, not location: the sound is not directionally indicative. (This is fact, not opinion; if you disagree with this, please do your research as it’s not a point which is worth arguing.) The game itself emulates this … you cannot tell the location of the shooter from the snapping sounds as the bullets pass by you. As for the sound giving away your presence in general, that’s a given and applies to all of the the suppressed rifles in the game. (And I don’t see any feedback requesting that suppressors should be removed entirely.)
- The subsonic ammo issue is a completely different topic. Yes, it eliminates the supersonic crack; It also completely changes the ballistics and effective range and power of the weapon. In some cases this is slight: The speed of sound is 1,100 feet per second … slowing a handgun caliber to below this threshold does not have nearly the impact on the original ballistics as doing the same thing with a rifle cartridge. Due to point 3 above, this is a non-issue with long range shooting.
Suppressing the sniper rifles is exactly the same as suppressing the other rifles, SMGs, and handguns, which is why it’s done IRL. Because of this one fact, all of the other factors are moot.
ARMA is a simulation more than a ‘game’, so there is no need for so-called ‘weapon balancing’ (if that’s why they have omitted suppressors on the sniper rifles). Long range accuracy AND suppressed doesn’t seem fair? Play a different game then. ARMA isn’t about ‘fair’, it’s about realism.
They're a tool that does one thing ... why argue whether something belongs in the game when it exists in the real world? That should be reason enough to have it.
I'm sad to see that there has been no activity on this issue as it seems like such a fundamental shortcoming for this franchise.
Personal experience working in the firearms industry ... yes, including suppressors. :-)