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5.56 does little damage
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Description

i know some people will state that because of the vest and the fact that its a 5.56, it usually doesn't quickly kill someone, but after playing the night showcase (wich was maybe the hardest showcase there) i could agree that the 5.56 does little damage, even aimed to the head, took me 5 shots to the chest to bring down an enemy.

Details

Legacy ID
3646466575
Severity
None
Resolution
Fixed
Reproducibility
Always
Category
Config

Event Timeline

Dr_Death edited Steps To Reproduce. (Show Details)Jun 25 2013, 1:01 AM
Dr_Death edited Additional Information. (Show Details)
Dr_Death set Category to Config.
Dr_Death set Reproducibility to Always.
Dr_Death set Severity to None.
Dr_Death set Resolution to Fixed.
Dr_Death set Legacy ID to 3646466575.May 7 2016, 2:52 PM
bez added a comment.Jun 25 2013, 4:40 AM

I agree, I just played domination using the Tavor and it was just horrible,
I couldn't kill anyone even from 50 meters.

I hit several times enemies with about 5 bullets but it seems like it did no
damage whatsoever. Needles to say, they immediately turned around and killed
me in one precise and deadly shot.

It was very very frustrating.

btwinch added a subscriber: btwinch.May 7 2016, 2:52 PM

You guys have the Beta? What timezone are you in? It's only 9PM mountain time for me.

bez added a comment.Jun 25 2013, 5:19 AM

I have the beta for the past 2 or 3 days.
i didn't really get why they continue to say the beta will come out at the 25.

I didn't get the steam update. Did you do any manual steps to update?

bez added a comment.Jun 25 2013, 5:22 AM

no, actually it was so quick i was very surprised,
maybe it updated automatically while I was not at home, but I got home
started the game and poof, it's beta, just like that, no downloads no nothing.

I just restarted steam and it updated. Thanks anyways.

Dev. build, last days of alpha in dev build give you the pre-BETA, that's how i got it, but please dont go off topic, in real life the TAVOR may be ALMOST as precise and almost the same range as the M16A2/A4, besides having little more damage and being a small med-weight Bullpup, you would think that a new ver. in 2035 would make it lighter, with more range and accuracy and a bigger damage, just like the change between the L85A1 (unaccurate) and the L85A2 (VERY accurate)

bez added a comment.Jun 25 2013, 9:41 PM

Also 5.56 caliber might be smaller but it is still very very deadly
due to Cavitation, the bullet is causing massive internal damage from
its turning and going all over the place inside the body.

So actually 5.56 caliber can, many of the times (if not most)
be even deadlier than higher caliber rounds.

well.... i doubt an M16 can damage more than a FN FAL... but at least we agree on the ticket.

bez added a comment.Jun 27 2013, 11:56 PM

Yes at least we agree on the ticket :)

I don't know much about the FN FAL, but 5.56 is usually considered a more
deadly round than other calibers due to the above mentioned effect.

Pay attention, not more powerful (7.62 is heavier), but more deadly.
Of course it's not black and white, but usually all calibers will go more or less
straight through the target (humane target that is, which is mainly water let's not forget)
While 5.56 caliber usually will have a very unpredictable route inside the target body.
this will usually cause unpredictable severe internal trauma.

An example, lets say you hit someone in the shoulder.
With 7.62, you will probably take his shoulder off, while not very pleasant, you can still live the outcome.
With a NATO 5.56 you hit the shoulder (yes the entry wound will be almost a pinhole size)
but the exit wound could be at your spine at the neck area, and it would be big, very big!!!
Outcome? Dead on the spot.
(yes, there is a chance the exit wound would be the side of the shoulder, but just for the example you know)

Like I said, of course it's not black and white, it depends where you hit the target, what distance you shoot from air temperature and humidity etc.
But it can many times (I dare say most of the times) be much more deadly than other calibers.
And let's not forget it is much more accurate and have a higher velocity as well.

A personal note,
as a combat medic we actually learned about the 5.56 cavitation effect.
We did not however, learn anything about other calibers.

If you are really interested in that subject please read this.
http://www.futurefirepower.com/myths-about-the-nato-556-cartridge

Goose added a subscriber: Goose.May 7 2016, 2:52 PM
Goose added a comment.Jun 28 2013, 2:08 AM

The 5.56 should do similar (or more) damage than (non-fragmenting) 7.62 at high velocity, and at lower velocity it should do less damage than 7.62 because at lower velocities the bullet will no longer fragment.

This would require 2 damage values and 2 "typicalSpeeds".

Goose, AFAIK this is implemented since ArmA 2, with the ballistic things.

Bez, it seems like if you dont know too much about the contact of a 5.56 in the body, yes, i see you are a combat medic (of whatever kind of class or military branch) but i doubt a supersonic 5.56 can make a 90º turn in the shoulder and hit the brain and penetrate it. besides, i have heard of USMC that their 5.56 in the M16 (think about how the M16 deals more damage than the M4) was so weak, they had to shot 9 bullets (3 times in burst) to kill a contact in CQB (50-100 meters if i recall correctly) and even though the guy died, he lived a bunch of minutes more.

and the reason why 7.62 its so deadly its because it makes you think it explodes in the middle of the human flesh, because when you shot it to somebody it looks like a small hole, but if it penetrated to the other side you see most of the rear part blown up.

bez added a comment.Jun 28 2013, 4:30 AM

Sorry Dr. Death missed you on that sentence:
"it seems like if you dont know too much about the contact of a 5.56 in the body, yes"

Regarding a 5.56 making a 90 degree turn inside the body I understand your doubts,
but it is very much possible (of course not an instant turn, we are talking about the entry and exit wounds specifically and what is in between them)
Also note, in my example I did not say the brain, i said the spine at the neck area (which is close to the shoulder)
Just Google 5.56 entry/exit wounds or 5.56 cavitation, or whatever, you will see.

But I think this whole debate is kind of moot since real life is not about numbers like in a game.
it's not like IRL, 5.56 do 50% damage, and 7.62 do 70% damage or vice versa.
Both bullets are VERY lethal, hell even 0.22 can be lethal if it will impact at the right point from near enough distance.

Regarding 9 bullets and not dead, well it can happen I guess.
I can tell you many more remarkable stories, but rare things can happen and they do not represent the norm.

Bottom line the game should be that one two 5.56 bullets to center mass should kill, end of story, just like 7.62 in the game.
of course distance and wind should also be taken into account.

But we both agree that the 5.56 in the game is unrealistically weak, so no problem here.
Unfortunately it does not seem that other people care about it so much :(

Maybe we can debate some more, and more people will see this ticket and vote up ;)

Goose added a comment.Jun 28 2013, 5:34 AM

@Dr Death: ballistics are implemented but there is only one "base" damage value for regular bullets, therefore 5.56 is always weaker than 7.62 (since game ignores cavitation/fragmentation effect that takes place at high velocity).

fragmentation isn't really neccessary, as its very weird for most of the bullets to break in impact.

Bez, when i say damage i mean a point in between the bullet penetration-speed-bullet weight-bullet size.

and while true, 2 5.56 to the torso should kill, remember everybody in the game is using 2035 bulletproof vest, wich is likely to be either Dragon Skin body armor or even better.

bez added a comment.Jun 28 2013, 11:20 PM

yeah could be right about the bulletproof vest in the future,
but than again, could be that the guns are also improved.

Anyway it just feels off to me that a deadly assault rifle from 50 meters
need 5 or more bullets to even begin effect the target, bulletproof vest or not.

And we should all remember that the game dose not simulate the AI thumble or
get knocked off by geting hit, they take 3-4 bullets and mange to fire at you
imidiatly with deadly accuracy, like nothing happened.

IRL, bullet proof vest or not, if you get shot center mass with 1-2 bullets,
even if you don't die, you will probably won't be able to be so effective
like the AI is. so it's still unrealistic.

@Dr Death: fragmentation is what the 5.56 is designed for. Tumbling is what the 5.45 is designed for. Both bullets should do more damage in a certain velocity range.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/wound1.gif

I think the damage of the 5.56 should definitely be increased, once I even had the embarassing situation on a multiplayer pvp server that I shot an enemy three times in the chest while he was standing only 3 meters(10ft) away from me, instead of just dying he just shot me and subsequently bandaged himself.

Bez: the game DOES simulate AI thumble, but its VERY rare and almost useless, player thumble happends almost all the time.

Goose: while the image seems slef explanatory, i think it really depends on it being either caseless, using FMJ or not, etc.

Goose added a comment.Jun 29 2013, 2:01 PM

It does depend on the bullet, however standard military 5.56 is definitely designed to fragment. However it can also also inconsistent, and it will not fragment at lower velocity.

Therefore at high velocity (<100-150m) 5.56 should do more damage, when it slows down it should do less damage. This would probably require it to be considered by the game to have two damage values, one more damaging, one less damaging.

bez added a comment.Jun 29 2013, 3:16 PM

If it simulates i have never seen it.
So in my eyes it's not.
Either way 5.56 is way too weak as it is now.
which we all agree on.

BTW I agree witrh goose, but either way even in low velocities
I feel like the damage should increase from what it is now.

I think the theory is that the new armor vests are very good at resisting the older 5.56 round while the 6.5 caseless rounds are newer and better at penetration. Just a guess though.

6.5 are nto new, and being new or old bullets doesnt change the penetration, while its true that 6.5 should do more damage, i think its not a good relation between 5.56 and 6.5 damage like how it should be in real life

Goose added a comment.Jun 30 2013, 1:56 AM

One of the problems is with the entire system, I doubt they'll change it in this generation, probably not in the next either...

Damage is just a set amount, "x", and the player bodies have no real "vital areas" apart from the head.

In real life even a small bullet can kill with one well-placed shot, in ArmA it needs to be a headshot, and even that can fail.

Ideally there would be other vital areas like "heart", "lungs", "spine", etc, and bullets would penetrate through the player body.

Vital areas would be great if they could make them work right but with Arma's desync and fail hit detection (at least in ARMA 2) I feel like that feature would become very buggy and annoying in multiplayer.

i think just making a hit detection as a heart its fine, or making a hit detection of vital organs zones in wich FAK wont heal them, and needs a medic yes or yes

What's the status of this? To me it feels like the damage has been tweaked.

I'll not dupe #15813 to this, since this ticket relates more to AI/players, while the other is more about building materials.

I think this issue has been fixed now that i have redone tests.

3 shots to the torso with an 5.56 to kill, 1 to the head even with helmet.

yes, this can be closed

Closing as fixed per reporter request.