Helicopter collective ascent/descent rates are not consistent among devices
Closed, ResolvedPublic


Collective raise and lower cause ascent and descent at different rates depending on input device type and input type.


Legacy ID
Steps To Reproduce

Compare ascend and descend rates when lowering/raising collective using different input devices.

Additional Information

In the ah6/mh6
all figures in feet per minute from onboard VSI

2000 up
1800 down

mapped to joystick buttons:
7000 up and down

If you map the ANALOG collective to buttons on the joystick you get still another set of figures

2200 up
1800 down

however if using the analog collective inputs for non analog buttons, after releasing either button the helicopter falls at a rate of 1200 feet per minute until a non analog collective input is pressed.

In the KA-60
all figures in meters per minute from VSI on board

600 up
600 down

joystick digital
250 up
250 down

joystick analog (mapped to a button)
700 up
600 down

  with a button release fall rate of 500 meters per minute
Madman edited Steps To Reproduce. (Show Details)Mar 7 2013, 11:42 AM
Madman edited Additional Information. (Show Details)
Madman set Category to Controls.
Madman set Reproducibility to Always.
Madman set Severity to Minor.
Madman set Resolution to Fixed.
Madman set Legacy ID to 2051844385.May 7 2016, 11:23 AM

Short, sweet, and you explained it more clearly than I was about to. This also applies to non-analogue controller buttons. I switched collective raise to one of my controller buttons, thinking it was a problem related to the analogue stick, but the acceleration still was not at maximum. I use a Playstation Dualshock 3.

Maxyz added a subscriber: Maxyz.May 7 2016, 11:23 AM
Maxyz added a comment.Mar 11 2013, 2:01 AM

Its just you assigned it to wrong line - there are actually 2 raise options: Collective raise and Collective raise(analog). You should use the second one.

Madman added a subscriber: Madman.May 7 2016, 11:23 AM

If you would have read the description carefully, you would have found that I have already tried it and that I didn't like the less controllable throttle control with the analogue option.

I guess it's because the proper heli commands are not in the alpha.

Are you guys sure, it's not a calibration issue? I couldn't repro this with my Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. Did you check out Control Panel for your game controllers, to see if the sliders/analogue sticks cover the full axis?

Works fine with Logitech Extreme 3D pro, but with x360 controller collective works only on 30%. Cyclic working on 70-80 percent on any controller except keyboard. And proof video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHW3bdvl664

there's quite a difference between joystick (works great), keyboard (collective is way too slow to adjust up and down related to joysticks) and gamepads (like x360 controllers where the axis isn't used at 100%)

Ezcoo added a subscriber: Ezcoo.May 7 2016, 11:23 AM
Ezcoo added a comment.Apr 15 2013, 5:58 PM

Saitek X52 Pro here. I'm not able to use the joystick effectively at all.

Both analog and regular collective up & down are bugged. With analog collective it's just crazy, going up and down, can't fly at all. With regular collective the minimum and maximum collective/throttle are about 25% and 75%. Especially the minimum level of about 25 % is really deadly with choppers, because it makes landing extremely difficult (if not impossible) because the chopper tends to slide down the hill or turn upside down quickly.

(Saitek SST is not an option, tried to install it once and it messed up my Win7 so badly that it didn't even start after that... never gonna touch it again)

Those are exactly the problems I have. Glad there are different people who have the same problem than I do.

sarlac added a subscriber: sarlac.May 7 2016, 11:23 AM

collective raise and lower cause ascent and descent at different rates depending on input device type and input type. Shouldn't these all be the same?

In the ah6/mh6
all figures in feet per minute from onboard VSI

2000 up
1800 down

mapped to joystick buttons:
7000 up and down

If you map the ANALOG collective to buttons on the joystick you get still another set of figures

2200 up
1800 down

however if using the analog collective inputs for non analog buttons, after releasing either button the helicopter falls at a rate of 1200 feet per minute until a non analog collective input is pressed.

In the KA-60
all figures in meters per minute from VSI on board

600 up
600 down

joystick digital
2.5 up
2.5 down

joystick analog (mapped to a button)
700 up
600 down

  with a button release fall rate of 500 meters per minute

Please correct this issue

Thanks for the feedback and tests @ sarlac!

Thank you but I made a mistake, that 2.5 should be 250

Fix'd it for ya.

Aside from the inconsistent climb rates for analogue and digital, there is an interesting side effect. If the analogue control is used alone, and then a digital input for climb is made (keyboard) this has the effect of centering the analogue control.

This can be an effective altitude hold in the hover, but unfortunately comes back to bite as soon as any cyclic inputs are made - the collective must be fully lowered and raised to re-calibrate the axis.

I've tested with concurrent analogue controls (Saitek Cyborg force 3D and Logitech extreme 3D pro) which both have the same analogue rate of climb, so it appears that only the digital inputs have a different rate.

b101uk added a subscriber: b101uk.May 7 2016, 11:23 AM

Well some axis have screwed up things happening, the 2 most noted for me is that turbo mode for vehicles is applied to the beginning of the reverse portion of the axis (http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=9176) and the general screwy nature of collective implementation.

Most axis are -100% to +100%

If you map the collective so “collective up [analogue]” is the up portion of your chosen axis (either + or – range) and conversely “collective down [analogue]” gets mapped to the opposite range, you end up with a collective that only works through half its range, as “0” gets mapped to the centre of the axis while the lower half gets ignored regardless of if it’s the “+” or “-“ portion mapped to “UP”

Mapped like the above the mh-9 (full fuel and just the co-pilot)
Up = 2100ft/min
Down = 1800ft/min
BUT the axis only works on half its range.

If you remove the portion of the axis mapped to “collective down [analogue]” and instead place it in “collective up [analogue]” in addition to the other half of the axis (you will now have both “+” & “-“ ranges mapped in “collective up [analogue]”)

You yield for the mh-9 (full fuel and just the co-pilot)
Up = 2100ft/min
Down = ONLY 1250ft/min
Now the axis works throughout its full range, BUT you are then deficient in sink-rate making it harder to get down to land.

If you then keep both “+” & “-“ ranges mapped in “collective up [analogue]” then head back to the “collective down [analogue]” and map as SECOND conflicting instance (will show up in red) for the down portion of the axis (you should now have “+ & -” ranges in the up and “-“ also in down mapping, assuming + is up and – is down, if you put the wrong one on you will have no up or no down)
Up = 2100ft/min
Down = 1800ft/min
Now axis works through about 75% of its range, BUT the lower half of the axis is sensitive just past the “0” centre point which then tails off, BUT is still better than having all the function in just half the axis, but makes landing harder as the lower part of the range beneath “0” is none linear while above “0” it is linear .

Therefore rather than suffer only half an axis working, or 75% of an axis with the lower 25% being sensitive, I decided to map both the "+ & -" to “collective up [analogue]” thus giving me my axis working through 100% of its range, I then also mapped my hat-switch down (digital on/off button) to “collective down [analogue]” thus with the analogue collective fully down I get 1250ft/min sink rate and if I press the hat-switch down it goes to 1800ft/min sink rate and if I release it, it goes back to 1250ft/min sink rate, I also mapped my hat-switch up to “collective down [button]” to take advantage of the quasi altitude hold it gives once released if momentarily pressed, though luckily for me it remains active even with some quite big cyclic/tail rotor inputs.

You make some valid observations b101uk, and this makes a more compelling argument to provide a more comprehensive axis profile and mapping configuration tool.

When will this ever get resolved? 41 true pilots in need of proper controlls!

The game is still pretty much in Alpha which means that there still are a lot of even more important promlems than this. This is why I set the priority to normal, so as long as it gets fixed until release, I don't want to put pressure on any dev.

Just relax and stay tuned, I'm fairly sure that it will get fixed soon :)

I believe #0008544 to be related to this as far as controller inputs are concerned.

  1. Agreed. Analog doesn't hardly work, and digital needs improvement.
  1. The sensitivity sliders don't seem to have much (if any) affect for me.
  1. It's not clear if the sensitivity sliders only affect analog, only affect digital, or affect both. Anyone know?

The helo and aircraft pilots need some LOVE here! Improve the throttle/collective please! :-) Pretty Please :-) :-) Pretty please, with sugar on top? :-) :-) :-)

Video showing the problem using digital only: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVl-_D-cdNc

I would say this is seriously stopping me enjoying the game as I can't fly helo's without using a gamepad and this would be an easy fix but needs implementing asap. If we can't play we can't find more bugs !

Been after a fix for this problem for ages, still nothing :(

Please try it again in rev 106965 (or higher)

rev 106965???

rev 106965???

revision / exe build number
can be found in right bottom corner of main menu

Got it!

It seems to be working perfectly for raise and lower collective analogue/
I assigned it to a joystic button and I get the proper rates!

EDIT: It works fine but it seems the neutral point is more on collective down.
When I dont press anything the chopper descends, that is on 106951 tho..

I also just got 106951, when I try to download the dev build. In this version, the throttle problem is not yet fixed, these are the numbers I got in a quick testing, nothing too serious. Tests were done in 10 seconds of full throttle in the MH-9.

Keyboard: 90 metres after 10 seconds
Saitek X52: 30 metres after 10 seconds

Is 106965 yet to be released maybe? Thank you for your attention anyways. Finally some love for the pilots ;)

Yes, 106951 is yet to be released.
Don't know when, so I just wrote rev number :).

Madman the problem is fixed when you put raise/lower on the anologue keys. On those my joystick button ascents faster than pressing Q :) But like I said, the collective is not neutral when not pressing anything, causing the chopper to descent

Yeah, it's been like that since I wrote this report. I thought of the normal throttle settings like I had them in ArmA 2, and they weren't in the analogue set. But if the new patch is coming, I will report back of its release date if my problem got solved.

Thank you very much in advance hladas for helping out here!

Same here, but fix is close! :)

When is 106965 due ?

Confirmed. I have the same issue using a Thrustmaster Dual Power 2. Have tried using my Saitek X52 Pro with the same issues listed above.

When is 106965 due ?

I suppose with next dev update.

dga added a comment.Jun 28 2013, 2:27 AM

So my observations with dev branch (106998) and X360 Gamepad in a MH9 with digital collective

Up: 1900
Neutral: 0
Down: -1800

With Q/Z on keyboard I get the same values. So if this is the intended raise/lower value then it should be fine.

However, with analog collective I get (using left and right trigger)

Up: 2150
Neutral: -1250
Down: -1950

The Neutral -1250 comes from the Raise (Analogue) and not lower. So I guess the zero of that Axis gets interpreted wrong.

So. It's still not really consistent. But I would love to use the analog setting when neutral wouldn't drag my heli down.

Seems fixed in new build using speedlink gamepad :) 106998

The Neutral -1250 comes from the Raise (Analogue) and not lower. So I guess the zero of that Axis gets interpreted wrong.

The difference is that Q/Z are implemented as an simple autopilot which, when Q or Z is released, sets collective to stable position. (otherwise it would be impossible to hover)

But when you are using analogue you have direct control over collective. No help from engine.

You can assign the normal collective up / down to an axis and it will work. It's not just off and on.

And I assume collective (analogue) is supposed to be assigned to a joysticks throttle or similar and therefore works as intended.

This should be marked as fixed, however roll still has the same problem (not being able to reach 100% either way).

blackjack, can you create a different ticket for the rolling axis (X)? Is the Z axis (rudder) consistent?

There already is a ticket for the roll axis http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=8002.

Both collective forward / backwards and the rudder / pedals seem to work fine.

Thanks, marking resolved then.

According to sarlac:

"Fireball, 2015 should not have been marked resolved. Roll rate is not the issue in that report. Ascent and descent rates are still not fixed. There is still the same discrepancy between collective ascent/descent rate on keyboard vs the same command on a joystick button."

Did you make sure you're using the latest dev build?

I did, and no the rates still don't catch up with the same keyboard action.

sarlac added a comment.Jul 6 2013, 8:06 PM

Thanks fireball

Wtf guys, there was nothing that was fixed in ticket nr. 2015 !
It is still impossible to use Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X throttle lever , to change the position of the collective. Only when i put my lever to 100% the helicopter starts to take off. Normaly it should take off when i put my lever 25% down just like in X-Plane 10 .

The collective in the control option has two different axis for lowering and raising the collective , there should be an option to choose 1 axis so i can use the collective properly like in X-Plane 10 !

if anyone got a solution for this problem please tell me !

For me it was almost fixed. Normal collective was still numb but analogue collective actually worked but didnt have a neutral point(if i didnt gave input it would stay stuck on downcollective)aka its still not perfect aka we remain crying :D but appreciating the work on it!

Tested in latest build 0.71.107443 using the in game vertical speed meter and a 360 controller.

Collective raise and lower get the same (max) values when assigned to keys or axis as the keyboard inputs.

Analogue collective is a bit weird. Collective up actually covers collective up and collective down nearly entirely. Collective down only covers about the last 5%. So by assigning collective up (analogue) to one axis you can fly fairly well.

I think collective (analogue) should be renamed as both collective controls are analogue and it seems to be confusing people. Also collective up (analogue) and collective down (analogue) controls changed into one.

Please sort the collective range issues out surly its not hard to fix ?

How is it with latest builds?

The roll is the same, all you need to do is sit in a helo and look at your collective stick, go full left or right and the hand a moves a little bit, then go left on the keyboard and the stick moves to its full extent.

The collective seems to be fixed, atleast the descent/ascent rates, both anologue and normal, are the same on joystick and keyboard. I am not sure if there has been a change in the FM but all the choppers are slowed down and they feel heavier which I consider improvement since I could reach 730kmph in a Mohawk with the sleighest dive..
Only one thing, the descent/ascentrates are fastly improved (for me) to the point that it is atleast flyable but I still get that feeling that only 95% of the range is used, but well need the opinions of our other pilots to comfirm this.

Sorry my mistake I mean "cyclic" stick not collective obviously roll has nothing to do with collective, that is as stated been fixed.

I use a Saitek X52 Pro and in build 72.107486 the issue is not resolved. Helicopters still only start up with the throttle at 50% and only responds to inputs at 50% and higher.

Raistlen, I'm afraid this is specific to the Saitek or your configuration in this case, I or other users I see here, can definitely not reproduce this.

Please go to control panel or visualize the axis within the game while you move the slider. Also verify that you've bound the correct controls, Collective up (analogue) and Collective down (analogue), to their respective axis on the silder.

For further help, please consult the BI Forums (http://forums.bistudio.com) or if you are sure that this must be an error on the game's side, please create a separate ticket where you state your exact hardware and configuration. Same applies to e.g. those with issues on Thrustmaster controllers.

This ticket is not about rolling or the neutral point (we have #1704 for that), this ticket is only about collective input on different controllers. Please don't compare it to digital collective bindings on an analogue axis - it's not meant to be used that way.

If there's no further input, which suggests that the collective controls differs between controllers, I'll close down this ticket.

Ticket 0001704 has nothing to do with roll ?
Should I create a new ticket for the roll issue then ?
I'm using a variety of gamepads, including the xbox360 controller. Should be very easy to recreate the issue.

Please look at the related issues just below the ticket description for such as #8002, which is already about roll issues.

PS: Or simply use the search feature...

Raistlen007 try the latest developmentbuild ;)

@Fireball: in the latest devbuild this issue is fixed 100%, atleast for my hardware. So if any of the Saitek guys can also have a look to confirm this we can close this case and thank the devs :)

tuplas added a subscriber: tuplas.May 7 2016, 11:23 AM

@Raistlen007 The engine only starts with up collective which starts at 50% if you have both the raise and lower collective assigned to different parts of the axis.

If you want to use 100% of the slider range for up collective you can do so by assigning both the - and + range of the slider axis to 'collective raise' and nothing to 'collective lower'. You will lose some descent speed by doing this though. But it'll start the engines even at 1%.

You'll get 75% for up collective and 25% down by assigning both the - and + range to 'collective raise' and only + or - to 'collective lower', depending which way you use the throttle. This will not decrease the descent speed.

Keep in mind the order in which the - and + ranges are listed in the controls affects the direction in which the throttle functions.

Also have a Saitek X52 Pro and the collective works fine for me.

So, @Karbiner

I have not tested in a few days and will in the morning.

Are you saying the rates of ascent and descent are now identical when you press q or z and when you map that same control to a joystick button? What about if you map analog collective to a button? My point is every method of commanding increase or decrease in altitude should produce the same maximum effect. In the past it did not. If that is the case then this issue is in fact resolved. I will test myself in about 7 hours.

@tuplas That solved the issue, thank you.

As far as I can tell this is completely solved. Well done. Thank you.

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