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penetration is determined by the loaded magazine type, not the gun or caliber.
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Description

Currently, you can use the same gun, but different magazines of the same caliber and the material penetration will change.

Ex. 100 round 6.5 has different ballistics than the 30 round 6.5, when both fired from the same weapon. {F21035} {F21036}

Details

Legacy ID
2050213742
Severity
None
Resolution
Open
Reproducibility
Always
Category
Config
Steps To Reproduce

Place player as NATO autorifleman.

place down blue basic ammo crate.

Pick up 30rd. 6.5mm tracers.

move to a thin sheet metal shed.

load the 30rd. tracers into MX SW.

Start firing at the shed, watch how the bullets curve and slow down.

Now load 100rd. 6.5mm tracers.

Repeat the test and watch how the bullets pass trough like butter.

Its the same bullet type, being fired out of the same gun, but the penetration is different.

Additional Information

My suggestion is that the penetration should be determined by the gun or caliber and not by what magazine is loaded. The expected result of the test is that the same caliber bullets from the MX SW all penetrate in the same fashion, regardless of the magazine loaded, however that's not the case.

Event Timeline

supercereal4 edited Additional Information. (Show Details)
supercereal4 set Category to Config.
supercereal4 set Reproducibility to Always.
supercereal4 set Severity to None.
supercereal4 set Resolution to Open.
supercereal4 set Legacy ID to 2050213742.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM
runekn added a subscriber: runekn.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM

I see what you mean, but you should say bullet caliber instead of gun.It SHOULD be according to the magazine, not the gun. But I don't think trazer or not should change it.

Yes, each different caliber should, and does for the most part, have different ballistic properties, however what I'm saying is that the MX SW and the MX are built differently, different barrel lengths, different rifling etc. and so its expected that the round that leaves the rifles will behave differently. For the most part they do. The MX SW, when loaded with the 100rd. magazine, has more penetration than the MX. However, when the MX SW is loaded with the 30rd. magazines, the bullets behave as if they were fired from the MX instead of the MX SW. The bullets are the same, its just one is 100 rounds, and configured for the MX SW, and the other is 30 rounds and configured for the MX. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the bullets that leave the weapons should behave uniformly, regardless of the magazine that's loaded as long as its the same caliber. Right now the MX SW magically turns into a full-auto only MX when its loaded with the 30rd magazines.

The only differens when the bullet exist that is dependent on the rifle is accuracy I think. Can't see how penetration should be different since that is dependent on bullet punch and shape. Both of those lies in the bullet it self and not the rifle.
I'm saying this to the best of my knowlegde about firearms, and logic.

mbbird added a subscriber: mbbird.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM

Shouldn't barrel length affect muzzle velocity, and thus penetration?

Well what I'm saying is that the 30rd 6.5 stanags and the 100rd. 6.5 stanags are the same bullet, therefor they should behave the same way when fired from the same weapon. As of now they behave in different ways.

One way BI could possibly make things a bit closer to reality is to have damage and penetration values defined in the config for the ammo itself, and not the magazine or weapon. However, when loaded into a specific weapon, the weapon itself can have value -modifiers- which can very slightly affect the characteristics of the rounds being fired, such as barrel length, rate-of-fire, etc. affecting damage, penetration, accuracy, etc.

Goose added a subscriber: Goose.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM

Basic damage and penetration values are defined by the bullets used.

The magazines change the speed the bullet is fired at. This also changes basic penetration and damage.

The 100 rnd magazine must have a faster muzzle velocity (that is, if it fires the same bullet as the 30 rnd magazine, too lazy to check). Muzzle velocity is tied to magazines, not guns. BIS needs to introduce a way to allow barrel length to affect muzzle velocity. The best system so far is the magazine velocity arrays in ACE - they should put something similar to that in the game so it doesn't require modding.

SLEDGE added a subscriber: SLEDGE.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM
SLEDGE added a comment.Aug 8 2013, 3:29 AM

Should be by the ammo type ... And not alway bigger better take in exemple the 5.7 of the P90 or the mp7 caliber (cant remember the name) they have an insane penetration performance

Wouldn't penetration in real life depend on the weapon and ammo type?

AD2001 added a comment.Aug 8 2013, 1:26 PM

Yes, and it would also depend on range, but that's probably already in the game.

This is an old issue with OFP/ArmA. The weapons do not affect the projectile. The ammunition specifications like velocity, is configured with the ammo and as far as I remember not adjusted by barrel length of the weapon.

Ammunition itself does not have any v0, only a barrel will make a projectile lethal because of the increased velocity and stability over range.

If they can change the engine to properly reflect that? I doubt it but would be highly appreciated.

50cal added a subscriber: 50cal.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM
50cal added a comment.Aug 9 2013, 4:55 PM

I think this is a feature in ACE already.

And this one of many many other "essential" things done in ACE that will not find it's way to the final product.

the changes of the guns in the penetration are barely anything.

the L85A2 does penetrate almost the same as the M16A4

but the M16A4 doesn't penetrate the same compared to the US army M4 Carbine.

penetration should be calculated by both using guns and ammo, like saying that the kind of bullet should have a certain basic config and every gun should modify that config as a different gun, to simulate this

Heruon added a subscriber: Heruon.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM
Heruon added a comment.Aug 9 2013, 9:25 PM

@Dr Death
Yes, the way you describe it is exactly the way it should work. And it can't be that hard to accomplish can it?

In fact there's manufacturers data given for a lenght barrel maybe sometimes many and have to reduce or increase the average speed and force of the bullet per inch / cm of barrel. So it's possible to calculate that if you've got enough data.

This seems to be fixed in the latest dev build, 30rd. 6.5 and 100rd. 6.5 have same ballistic properties.

wait, supercereal, you want penetartion to be calculated from the bullet type? or from the gun? or from both?

What I had observed was that when using the MX SW, the bullets fired whilst using the 100 round magazine behaved differently than when the MX SW was firing the 30 round magazine. That prompted me to make a ticket asking to make the ballistics uniform for the weapon; it shouldn't matter what type of magazine is loaded as long as its the same caliber and fired from the same rifle. Today the ballistics of the 30 round 6.5 stanag were adjusted to behave the same as the 100 round 6.5 stanag, thus eliminating the issue.

i understand

Nnnnnnnnoooo, I don't know why this has so many upvotes.

Penetration is calculated using the BULLET, not the magazine, not the gun. The tracer magazines contain tracer bullets, perhaps someone put an incorrect value for that tracers. Anyways:

Different bullets = different penetration. This allows people to put different values for hollow points, tracers, armor-piercing, high explosive, they all can have different penetration.

It doesn't make sense using the gun to determine this, the gun is not penetrating anything, it's all in the bullet. The only way magazine affects this is with muzzle velocity, less velocity = less penetration, but I'm pretty sure muzzle velocity is the same for tracers and noTracers.

This is an issue with the tracer bullets, NOT with the game mechanics.

Title should be changed to "tracer bullets inadequate penetration" or something like that.

Double-checked, all 6.5mm bullets have same penetration.

The reason 100rnd magazine has higher penetration is because muzzle velocity is different:

100rnd = 850 m/s
30rnd = 795 m/s

This is probably because the Mk200 machine gun is supposed to have a longer barrel, and the 100rnd magazine is meant for that weapon.

The extra 55 m/s probably allowed the bullet to pass some "threshold" of penetration in the metal shed.

Try this: load a 100rnd magazine, move 75-80 meters from the shed. Impact velocity at that range should be about 795 m/s, same as muzzle velocity of 30rnd magazine, so the bullets should curve down just like the ones in the 30rnd magazine curve from point blank.

reschke added a subscriber: reschke.May 7 2016, 3:38 PM

Muzzle velocity is the same across the board for tracer and non-tracer type ammunition of the same caliber; unless loaded for sub-sonic performance. However the magazine itself does not change the penetration ability of the round that is being fired by the weapon. The magazine is only a way to carry the ammunition and allow it to be fired by the weapon. The weapon is also directly tied to the penetration of the projectile but it is also effected by amount of propellant, weight of the projectile and shape.

Goose, you just contradicted yourself in the second comment.

Different guns can use the same ammo in a different way, the Opfor gun being a Bullpup SMG can have a shorter barrel (less m/s) or a barrel of the same lenght.

You're right, I did not make myself clear. Bullet's inherent penetration is defined by value "caliber" in CfgAmmo, ie:

class B_65x39_Caseless : BulletBase {

		caliber = 1;

};

class B_762x51_Ball : BulletBase {
caliber = 1.6;

        };

class B_127x108_Ball : BulletBase {
caliber = 2.8;

        };

In turn is modified by current velocity, less velocity = less penetration. One would expect barely any difference in penetration between 850 m/s and 795 m/s, but it appears the slight extra velocity makes a big difference in this particular case, probably an issue with penetration properties of the shed.

Shorter barrel does not affect muzzle velocity in ArmA, as far as I am aware they have not changed that.

See? that's why this ticket its here.

the way ballistic works in the link between gun-bullet is wrong.

Really simplified, its because the 100rd. 6.5 mag behaves like "X" when used with the MX SW, and the 30rd. 6.5 mag behaves like "Y" when used with the MX SW. What should happen is they should both behave like "X" because its the same caliber fired from the same weapon under the same conditions. However since the creation of this ticket the bullet ballistics and penetrations have changed, so this all may be a moot point now.

its still the fact that the barrel and the bullet both should affect the range, penetration, and speed, not just one.

@Dr Death: yes, but the ticket suggests "penetration should be determined by the gun and not what magazine is loaded", that suggestion is not something I agree with.

Bullet's muzzle velocity should be affected by barrel length, that is all that is needed... not sure why this feature wasn't already added to the series even in ArmA 2 or OA.

Also, another issue perhaps: why can the MX even use Mk200 "magazines"? Doesn't the Mk200 use belts? The MX doesn't appear to have belt-feed...

Cant Mag-feed guns be used with belt-feed clips?

Or viceversa?

No, you need a special upper receiver or some other conversion. First of all there is no spring to push new rounds into place, so the gun mechanism has to do that, second, the gun needs to deal with the discarded links or belt... the MX is fictional, but it doesn't seem likely it could use belts.

What about Clip-feed Machine guns using magazines?

Depends on the gun, Minimi for example can use both because it was designed with that feature. Usually no.

So we can assume the LMG variant of the MX (ACR in real life) its able to use both Clip and Mag?

Goose added a comment.Nov 20 2013, 2:50 AM

No; anyways, turns out I had magazine names mixed up, MX SW appears to use 100rnd quad-stack magazine, similar kind of magazine to Surefire 60rnd, although I believe it describes it as "belt" which is incorrect. 850 m/s vs standard 795 m/s.

I tested the tin shed in non-dev version, both 100rnd and 30rnd tracers went through with minimal deflection. Perhaps dev version has changed something in the tin shed.

Dr Death; the word you are looking for is link, not clip.

Clip is also the word.

Goose:

ok, i am lost now.