Interesting. Would be fun to see this. If tired your gun would practicaly fly out of your hand.

good idea I don´t know why 5 downvotes

Its gona make the game more harder. Even do its a simulator people still try to turn it into an arcade so dayz becomes mainstream and Wasteland gets 2ndplace.

Why would standing create a loss in stamina? Sorry, but I'm downvoting this. The game needs to be more fluid and it doesn't need additional calculations, requiring additional balancing. Stamina needs to have a long-term effect rather than run or shoot for 30 seconds and then need 30 seconds to rest.

Standing? Ever tried standing for a long time with 50 KG of gear? No you haven't. Also game needs to be more fluid? This game is trying to simulate real life events as dus its a simulator. Not because you feel like this is not taking enough time for some action means that realistic features that need some working on are bad.

Carrying lots of gear should affect the overall fatigue. Just because fatigue isn't yet balanced correctly there's no need for an additional "hands stamina". Just keep in mind that these calculations would also affect all of the already overloaded AI.

Surfer
This stamina and fatigue concern only to "hands"(stabilizing muscles, tendons) in situation when you shooting. Standing position most difficult in that sense.

Ok, it's not about hauling 50kgs around, neither wielding a 50kg machinegun. So how many rounds would your average standing soldier be able to fire before his stabilizing muscles and tendons get tired?

This is not about feature. This is about feature adjustments. In basic, the best way is to apply individual fatigue for each weapon class or weapon name. But if they have are weight - it can be used.

But all i want - get those immersive feelings with my stance, with my weapon class, with my firing timings.

I can't decide guys.
Already the recoil and sway is really harsh on player.
If this can be implemented i want to see the 'worst case of recoil' to be the 'present' state of recoil.. :/

If the Devs reconsider the way weapons are handled in ArmA 3 (recoil, sway, resting...) there is a possibility to make this happen.

Aiming requires concentration and muscle. After several seconds, your eyes start to give you ghost images (lack of oxygen due to slowed breathing) and your muscles will twitch after prolonged aiming.

So this is not a bad idea in general. But first there should be a good basic weapon handling system. Recoil is way over the top, sway not so much, holding breath is not a good technique after all, because of aforementioned lack of oxygen and you are better off shooting in your natural respiratory pauses.

So to make this work in-game:

Walking with your weapon lowered does not consume stamina.
Jogging with your weapon lowered does consume stamina n+1.

Walking with your weapon in the ready does consume stamina slowly n+2
Jogging with your weapon in the ready does consume stamina n+3

Running is only possible with a lowered weapon and stamina consumption n+5

The combat pace modifier reduces the speed to something between walking and jogging with your weapon in the ready, stamina consumption n+2,5

Standing still and aiming should consume stamina n+0,2

Prone and sitting position do not consume stamina, as they are considered bone supported positions (no muscle tension to stabilize the weapon)

The stance modifier should add to consumption: the more muscles are required to maintain the stance, the more it will consume stamina.

The numbers are made up to make the difference visible.

That will lead to one realistic aspect: Less running and gunning, more cover and concealment. This is not CoD, MoH or CS or what ever games are used as a reference for run-and-gun tactics.

This game is about realism and a combat simulation. If you can point me to a proof of running foot patrols in modern engagements, be my guest and share it.

Getting from A to B should be a real consideration. Do I run and am out of stamina to effectively engage target or do I walk in a patrol manner to observe the environment and be ready to engage without being punished by the body exhaust.

If you need to run to cover or shoot on the run, you can do so. But it is way more realistic to pant after running a short distance with combat gear (weight should be accounted into the calculation)

If you look at the current multiplayer sessions, many guys just run around all the time. Only in a few occasions you see people actually walking with weapons lowered in a realistic fashion.

So back to recoil and stamina:

Recoil is not affected by your degree of exhaustion. But the control of the weapon is. So not the recoil should be increased, the sway should.

This might require two types of exhaustion. One is by increased cardiovascular activities and the other by muscle tension.

You won't start breathing heavily after holding your gun for 5 minutes in a standing unsupported position. You will eventually lower your weapon due to hypoglycemia.

Sway affected by "overall" stamina. Because of breathing and oxid loss.
Recoil itself affected by "hands" stamina.
The difference between aerobic and anaerobic muscle fatigue.
This idea about it.
Swaying is already in the game.

So it's all about rewarding the player for lowering his weapon.

Yes, just like IRL.

For managing! his weapon. Check youtube for FUNKER530 and find someone who not managing.
You need to now where and how use it. You must train this.

Not just for lowering his weapon, for correct operational procedures. You would also lower your weapon if a friendly walks in front of you or at least aim above his head as long as he would be in your line of sight. Some games did that pretty good.

Running around with your weapon in the ready should not be the default stance. It should be walking with your weapon lowered. But ArmA seems to adapt too many CoD-esque "features".

Sad thing is that "the" last military simulation is abused by Wasteland and Zombie game modes and people forget to realize that this is about military simulation not run-and-gun solo ops.

You probably know the typical Domination / Invade&Annex player? The flying, rocket launcher wielding sniper engineer medic.

This is what comes out of weapon choice and no punishment for unrealistic loadouts and tactics.

Suffering from running with your weapon raised is a nice and realistic punishment for those individuals. But that does not make money... go figure.

Let's not deviate from the topic. We are talking about hand fatigue from shooting. That leads to a deterioration in control. In game - increase recoil.

Managing your weapon should be part of your etiquette, not forced.

I am using run with (automatically) lowered weapon to cross distances and walk with ready weapon in combat situations if not running. I would not lower my weapon into the relaxed stance during combat which would look odd. And neither would I walk miles with lowered weapon in non combat situations, where I would rather jog or take a ride. Lowering your weapon makes sense when meeting allies, which btw DayZ forced quite nice.

So if it's really just about hand fatigue from shooting, how many rounds do you plan to shoot before your player would get tired?

You don't understand i guess. This feature not force any lowering. You loss hands_stamina only when shooting.

Another way to implement this feature is adding recoil fading in 'Hold Breath' procedure. Just need to adjust 'Hold Breath' for each weapon depend his physical and firing characteristics.
But - no relations to shooting "from the hip".

If I understand you correctly Anachoretes, you are talking about increasing recoil just by shooting a firearm?

You do not use muscles to counter recoil. That would be unwise. You use proper grip and stance and absorb the recoil with your body and arms.

What is tiring is holding your weapon in the ready for quite some time. Try holding a 4kg item in your hands with arms extended.

You don't even have to shoot to get fatigued.

@Surfer: You are right. You should not be forced. The loss of stamina will, however, change your opinion about proper etiquette. This is what makes ArmA too much like any other shooter. People going in solo and not using team play. Look at the current and past wars and conflicts. You won't find people running around like headless chickens, they do not run with weapon in the ready through the combat zone (unless you like to watch Monkey Snackbar videos on LiveLeak).

As a competitive shooter, I can not support the increase of recoil. The recoil is always the same, your arms get tired from holding a gun too long. With all kinds of other side effects that comes with shooting and breath control (not holding breath)

Human using proper grip and stance for proper weght control. But recoil always mean working short muscles. Just trying shoot or read some usefull books if you don't understand so basic things. Or try to work with perforator.
And this is about decreasing recoil, not increasing.
You can just ignore something that you don't understand.

I do shoot quite a lot. And I do work in the firearms industry. So I guess you could say my opinion is not based on reading books. Thank you for your cooperation.

If your are shooting its not mean you understand whats going on.
This fact becomes clear when you declares that there is no muscle work.
I can also write that I work somewhere or do something. But if someone makes a mistake it's an indicator.

So if you really have to work on your grip to deal with recoil, you should see a doctor. Because there is no muscle work to deal with recoil. This is the whole point. You need strong arms to keep the weapon steady longer, but how many rounds are you going to shoot to make your hands let lose of the gun they are holding?

This is ridiculous. Try firing 100 or 200 rounds without lowering your weapon. Oh wait. You have to reload, don't you?

Shooting 30 rounds .50 AE will make you curse your choice of handgun, but you won't do that with your arms stretched out, and your hands will hurt due to the forces, but you won't drop the gun or be exhausted by recoil.

You do not counter recoil by force. This will result in poor aim. You are surprised by the shot, how do you counter surprise? This is exactly the point here you don't seem to understand. Does the term compressed surprise break mean anything to you?

Poor technique stands in contrast to your statement that soldiers are trained to properly shoot.

What do we gain by adding increased recoil by firing a gun multiple times "we" are trained to use? If anything changes it is your cone of fire, but with the trigger discipline your shot will break at the best possible moment and despite increased sway due to lowered concentration, competitive and military shooter can still hit their targets.

In real life if you have to stand around for a longer time, you would drop your heavy backpacks on the ground. Also other things like launchers.
But i don´t want to do that in Arma, because its never that intuitive like iRL.

Thanks a lot Predator! Finally someone with fond knowledge open to find a working solution to the issue of improper weapon handling. Anachoretes, I understand based on your idea your weapon should not be forced down but you should be disciplined by the game to do so.

However your conclusions which seen to change between "firing your weapon will tire you" and "holding your weapon will tire you" are not to the point and the latter case is already proven wrong by Predator.

You didn't manage to convince me by answering the obvious question: "How long should your soldier be able to hold his weapon ready until this affects his shooting?"

-->Poor technique stands in contrast to your statement that soldiers are trained to properly shoot.

This reasoning of home shooters. Recoil is the force, you're just ready for it, because exercise. I dont need to see doctor because i am are doctor and know how the body is working.

-->You do not counter recoil by force.
Your body absorbs. Your front hand "vibrated". Thats all eat energy. I am not telling about cans shooting.

I just trying to found a solution for those who think that weapon don't create any recoil and those who think differently.

But there is always someone jumps out, which was at war, shot a thousand times, and draws conclusions based on lack of education. What does it mean? Just bullshit.

-->to find a working solution
I don't see any solutions. No, only one - sit on the ass before some DayZ kid's persuade developers to remove recoil or swaying. You whant this? If not, go to the proper topic\ticket and say that. Not to me.

So if you are a doctor...Which country I should stay away from to fall into your "educated" hands?

You don't have a clue what you are talking about, buddy. Just saying.

You might do wonders with your vibrating hands as a doctor, this whole discussion is more entertaining than I thought it would be.

Your lack of knowledge concerning firearms and shooting technique is not a bad thing, but insisting on something that is made up BS won't make this game any better.

And since you don't know me or what I did, or do you should not jump to conclusions. I don't know you so I can't tell what a troll looks like.

X-D

ThePredator
Yes, we don't now you. Thats why you words about what you know, and what i know is nothing. Especially when someone is just denied but offers nothing. Because you just are stupid troll who can't handle with game recoil. You are funny guy. Game can hide this, but why? For arcade gamers like you? I can't feel firearm, so i need to know that is a live thing. I don't want to leave all work for modelled soldiers.

Anachoretes, you are the funny guy, I give you that.

Since you don't seem to understand logic and keep acting as smart as on the official forums, you joined last month by the way, I stop commenting on this thread.

I apologize to anyone that got tired reading this boring, yet entertaining topic.

Related to :
http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=432

I have write a huge and long comment about recoil, how it must work and why the one in Arma is actually false.
Link to the comment here :
http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=432#c34660
I have explain how real recoil work with all process.
And recoil must be completely reworked and reviewed cause it is actually totally false.

And i totally agree with your idea, shooting is exhausting, mainly with heavy weapon and depending of the stance but also of the use of bipod/resting.
What must affect it :
Weapon weight
Weapon caliber
Recoil value of the weapon
Stance
Resting/bipob use
Use of handgrip and other lower attachment (Inventory system need to be reworked and add of lower attachment including different hand grip/bipod, mix of both, grenade launcher, shotgun and other things)

Upvoted !!!

ThePredator
I don't need your attention. I agree that adding some "comeback" for recoil probably good idea.But removed completely - no thanks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12834134

-->Recoil value of the weapon

Recoil value is something between weight, muzzle velocity, action type, etc.

Ejecta mass × ejecta velocity = recoiling mass × recoil velocity-->

-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation

ThePredator, I am sorry, but you can be the most accurate shooter in the universe but if you really deny there are muscles involved in holding and shooting a gun, then you really are an ignorant person. You cannot possibly mean it seriously. No way.