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[Control] Split 'Tactical Pace' and 'Normal' movement entirely
Reviewed, WishlistPublic

Description

Bear with me as this may be hard to follow, I'll try my best to keep it simple.
(Now edited for clarity - 3/5/13)

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[A.] CURRENT STATES

Right now there are essentially 4 main 'movement states' in game, these are:
(the bit underneath is the description of the state)

[1] Tactical Pace
> Weapon shouldered, ready to fire. (reduced speeds when moving, highest fatigue)
[2] Normal
> Weapon shouldered, but lowered slightly. (normal speeds when moving, high fatigue)
[3] Gun Lowered Tactical Pace
> Weapon NOT shouldered, the soldier keeps both hands on gun. (slightly faster than [2] when moving, low fatigue)
[4] Gun Lowered
> Weapon NOT shouldered, soldier at ease / relaxed. (slightly slower than [2] when moving, lowest fatigue)

Note 1: I am only talking about movement while standing and crouched, Prone does NOT have a Tactical Pace modifier.

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[B.] FOR REFERENCE

Since the states above don't really have proper titles as far as know, I'll be referring to them as the following:
[1] Combat Tactical
[2] Combat
[3] Casual Tactical
[4] Casual

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[C.] CONTEXT / EXAMPLE

Something that throws me off; and this is partly due to there not being any stance indicator in the official build, but sometimes it can be confusing to know if you're in Tactical Pace or not.

[Example:]
You are stood still. You press the Tactical Pace key. There is no visual feedback anything has happened. You run forward, you are in one state. You stop moving. You press the Tactical Pace key. No visual feedback. You run forward, you are in another state.

In the heat of the moment, and between all the different stance adjustments you can employ, it can be easy to lose track of what mode you're in - And with a brutal and unforgiving game like Arma an error here could mean the difference between life and death!

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[D.] THE SUGGESTION

Separate the Tactical Pace and Normal movement states entirely so you have:

(1) 'Combat': Your soldier has his weapon shouldered, but lowered slightly, so not obscuring your vision as much.
> Also known as Low-Ready. This would be the default state.
(2) 'Combat Tactical': Your soldier has his weapon raised, ready to fire.
> Accessed by pressing your 'Tactical Pace' key. See [F.] for more details.

At the end of the day we are playing a game, and probably more often than not a button press will cause our character to do something we didn't originally intend.

The idea here is to lower the risk of these errors happening by changing the system, and making it clearer to the player that if they a button the expected result will happen.

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[E.] WHAT IS REQUIRED

Ultimately this requires a few animation additions:

'Combat' animations for standing idle and crouched idle. (See attached file: 'Envisioned Combat Stance.jpg')
'Combat' animations for walking stood up and walking crouched.
(For all weapons: Rifle/Pistol/Launcher)

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[F.] HOW WOULD IT WORK

The default stance would be 'Combat' - Just as it is ingame right now, but with the new animation additions suggested in [D.]

If you were to press your Fire key while in 'Combat', you would enter 'Combat Tactical'.

If you were to hold down your Fire key while in 'Combat' you would enter 'Combat Tactical' and start firing, depending on the firemode you have selected for your gun: Semi-Auto, Automatic or Burst.

(Using this method there would be a short delay between the keypress and your gun firing, this would be due to the soldier having to first enter 'Combat Tactical')

If you were to press your ADS (Aim Down Sights) key while in 'Combat' you would go straight to ADS, as normal.

(This would be slightly slower than if you were in 'Combat Tactical' for the same reason as above)

When you come out of ADS you will enter 'Combat Tactical'.

Swapping between 'Combat' and 'Combat Tactical' is done by pressing your Tactical Pace key, just as it is now.

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[G.] CASUAL STATES

Right now you can toggle between Casual animations by using your Tactical Pace key. You cannot switch using this method while walking with your gun lowered, even though there are 2 animations.
If the states were split as suggested, you should be able to switch between them.

If you were to press your Fire key in any Casual state, you should enter 'Combat Tactical'.

Using your Toggle Raise Weapon key to manually switch states you would always go to 'Combat' (if in a 'Casual' state) or 'Casual Tactical' (if in a 'Combat' state). {F18663} {F18664} {F18665} {F18666}

Details

Legacy ID
2890615718
Severity
Tweak
Resolution
Open
Reproducibility
N/A
Category
Controls
Additional Information

I think that this system would improve the flow of infantry movement. The controls would feel more intuitive and the soldier's responses more natural.

I can only expect this to get harder to implement as development presses on. As the game is in Alpha it would be good to test this now then beta or retail, to see what players prefer.

Note: I haven't included Casual Running or Casual Crouch Walk because currently the animations are either not working as intended or are unfinished.

Related forum topic: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?154098-Low-Ready-Position

(Currently at 39 upvotes to 2 downvotes as of 16/5/13)

Event Timeline

Phalanx edited Steps To Reproduce. (Show Details)Apr 4 2013, 1:53 AM
Phalanx edited Additional Information. (Show Details)
Phalanx set Category to Controls.
Phalanx set Reproducibility to N/A.
Phalanx set Severity to Tweak.
Phalanx set Resolution to Open.
Phalanx set Legacy ID to 2890615718.May 7 2016, 1:25 PM
Phalanx added a subscriber: Phalanx.May 7 2016, 1:25 PM

Updated with new screenshots.

The one "Envisioned New Stance" is what I made with a bit of image editing, the torso might look a bit off as a result but you should get the general idea.

Bohemia added a subscriber: Bohemia.May 7 2016, 1:25 PM

tactical pace/mode should also use the magpul grip. too much work, devs?

jovan added a subscriber: jovan.May 7 2016, 1:25 PM
jovan added a comment.Apr 14 2013, 4:34 AM

+1 As it would make the unit look less stiff

John: It't not whether or not it's too much work for the devs. It's whether or not it is a Good idea or bad idea and lots of decision making. If you understand coding like these guys including a amateur programmer like my self. It's as simply as replacing animations.

Sorry to bump this but I'd like more opinions on this issue. I don't believe that only 15 players currently playing the Alpha have an opinion on how infantry should control.

This ticket suggests a fundamental change to gameplay for better (or for worse) and it deserves consideration while there is still time to implement it.

I've been reading your idea a couple of times now, and I still don't get it... or actually, I don't understand how you wrote it down.

As I would like to see it, there are 3 weapon modes:

  • combat: horizontal (weapon is aiming and ready to fire)
  • tactical: diagonal (weapon is ready to fire)
  • rest: vertical (weapon is lowered)

and 4 movement modes:

  • walking (rest + tactical + combat)
  • jogging (rest + tactical + combat)
  • running (rest + tactical)
  • sprint (rest only)

However, as far as I know, this is already in ArmA3 and more then enough.
If I understand your images, you just want another weapon mode which is between (my) tactical and rest mode. This doesn't seem to add much to the game, except for another stance we have to remember.

// not voted, until clear how and what...

It can be a little hard to understand as the change is subtle but the implications are great. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

I'm not sure I understand your vision of the movement system so I don't think trying to explain my idea around that will help.

Going back to the movement states I listed above:

  1. Tactical Pace (Combat Tactical)
  2. Normal (Combat)
  3. Gun Lowered Tactical Pace (Casual Tactical)
  4. Gun Lowered (Casual)

(Note that these apply to Standing and Crouched stances, Prone has no Tactical Pace modifier)

The reason I put these down is because the game registers, reacts to and remembers the "Tactical Pace" keypress when moving around as infantry.

Example A: You have just spawned and are running forward, you press the Tactical Pace key, your soldier adjusts his running stance. Therefore there are 2 animation states: Tactical, and Normal (or 'Combat'). bear in mind these are seperate to the Weapon Lowered ('Casual') states.

Example B: You are running with your weapon lowered and you press the Tactical Pace key, your soldier adjusts his running stance. Again, there are 2 animation states here. You slowly getting the idea?

My gripe with the current system is these states blur together and can lead to a bit of confusion.

Now I noticed you said that I was suggesting I wanted 'just another weapon mode' that 'we have to remember'.
The fact is players are doing this already, just with not as much visual feedback, and technically the stance I'm suggesting is already in the game - It's just merged with another.

Example C: You are stood still, you press the Tactical Pace key. There is no visual feedback anything has happened. Run forward, you are in one state. Stop. Press the Tactical Pace key. No visual feedback. Run forward, you are in another state.

This is where my idea fills the gap.

When running with Tactical Pace off your character has his weapon shouldered, but lowered slightly - So as if ready to fire but not aiming. I am asking for this animation to be added to idle and walking states, so that the switch between Tactical Pace is more obvious.

Within the ticket I have suggested mechanics that will bridge the states with this new system implemented, so your actions feel connected and seamless, rather than frustrating and a hinderance (kind of how I feel they are now)

Does this answer your question at all?

related to #6181 ?

Quite possibly, yes. I think we're more or less suggesting the same thing. Just this ticket includes the same principle but for rifles, too - And here stances & states are explained in more detail.

I now understand it but it's explained in a way that's too hard to understand.

Problem: missing animations for IDLE + Tactical Pace

Solution: add new/extra animation IDLE + Tactical Pace (both standing and crouching)

I get where you're coming from Grez, but the reason I'm having to explain it in the way I am is because it's not simply a case of missing animations, the current system wasn't designed with this ticket's suggestions in mind.

The Tactical Pace animations need not be changed at all.

As I said in the ticket:
"Ultimately this only requires a few animation additions, depending on how BIS rigged up the skeleton.. One for stationary while Stood up and Crouched, and again but for walking. (Then the same for Pistol animations)
These animations only affect the upper torso and would match how the character looks while running out of tactical pace."

But perhaps it's not clear enough.

There is a forum topic about this same idea.Very hard to get across the changes being asked for,and that's both here and on the forums.So to add to the confusion....;)

Turn on tactical pace and the weapon shoulders fully/and stays on target WHEN MOVING.Turn off tactical pace and the weapon lowers slightly WHEN MOVING but then raises to shouldered position when you stop moving.What would be ideal is if you click off tactical pace,the weapon lowers AND STAYS LOWERED EVEN WHEN NOT MOVING.This change of the view when not moving can indicate to the player what stance is chosen.So when standing or crouching WHILE NOT MOVING the weapons position will be one of the two below.

Tactical Pace=the weapon will be shouldered.

Combat Pace=the weapon is slightly lowered.

And same with walking speeds while standing or crouched.

So the two benefits are.First is that the slightly lower weapon onscreen allows a bit more view space to be seen and also is an indicator of which of the two is chosen.

Aye, this is pretty much it Wolf. If you share the link to this thread you're talking about I'll include it in the ticket description under additional info.

Yes its needed. Also i had a hard time to find out how to walk "slow" in non tactical pace mode.
I couldn't find a key for it, like i was used to in previous ArmA series.

I have edited the original ticket to hopefully provide a bit more clarity on what I am suggesting.

I been thinking that maybe getting rid of the tactical key would be better and instead use the lower weapon key to do just that,lower weapon to the next lower animation.In tactical pace and you click lower weapon key you enter low-ready animation and you click lower weapon key again and you lower weapon fully.And vice versa with the fire key where you press once and it goes to low-ready animation and you click again and it enters tactical pace animation.Right now you have to hit the tactical key to raise the weapon and if you fire while in low-ready the weapon instead fires into the ground.

If you hit optics key with weapon fully lowered it goes straight to sight which BTW right now in alpha it doesn't go to optics but just slightly zooms the view in.

Would just feel more natural IMO to hit a key and weapon lowers and hit it again and it lowers fully.

Hanz added a subscriber: Hanz.May 7 2016, 1:25 PM
Hanz added a comment.May 21 2013, 12:37 PM

This issue was processed by our team and will be looked into. We thank you for your feedback.

Adding an official stance indicator was a step in the right direction, but I hope that as we transition into Beta the focus is not entirely shifted away from infantry combat, as there is still much to be done.. And I think this is still very much needed.

I have attached a picture called "Movement System Diagram" which is my vision of how the system would look with my feature implemented.

See link:
http://feedback.arma3.com/file_download.php?file_id=4388&type=bug

To quote myself from another ticket, the explanation is:
Using the Tactical Pace key you can switch between 2 states: Combat and Combat tactical. Within each state there are 3 modes: Standing, Walking and Running - You switch between these with your usual typical movement keys WASD etc.

As you can see there is no overlap. The Tactical Pace Modifier sits in the middle and clearly divides these 2 states, which both have their own role and purpose.

The only thing I haven't drawn in there which I could've.. Another way you could get from 'Combat' to 'Combat tactical' would be to press your 'Fire' (default: LMB) key, but that's about the only exception to the divide - and would be there solely to keep the controls seamless and intuitive.

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To compare I've also drawn a version to show how I see the current implementation found in-game:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32507073/Movement%20System%20Diagram%20-%20Current.png [^]

As you can see from that one there's definite overlap.

You can go through the Tactical Pace modifier but still be using modes from Combat Tactical, even though you're in Combat state.

This is where the confusion comes from, and where the player is having to remember what state he is in whenever he presses the Tactical Pace key.